Just watch the video and you'll see.
edit: or, at least watching their videos :lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXZnQ9jj7U
Uhm...
Uhm, what?
never seen the video before....cool video for a classic song
lol
I don't understand what the, "lol" about. Did you people not watch the video?
Apart from the hynotherapist bit and the keyboardist looking like the guy from the movie the Warriors, I dont get it.
Those are some boss glasses the therapist is wearing.
I just don't understand, though.
Huge stretch.
I've always loved this song, top 3 Rainbow song easily. JLT sounds amazing as usual. Underrated melodic hard rock.
The more Rainbow the better!
I would've loved to have seen DT do Rising as a classic album night. A Light in The Black would be awesome with JP and JR!
Stargazer was fantastic.
You know, might as well open a tasty can of worms in this thread:
I have to say that exploring old prog has had a directly adverse effect on my appreciation of DT. I don't know, you could of course say that I was naive going into DT, since I assumed that 100% of their ideas came from their own pen. But there's just been so many occasion where years down the road I learned that this awesome riff I always loved was just taken (albeit slightly modified) from some other band's song. Home, Trial of Tears, the ending of Octavarium...
rumborak
Quote from: Lowdz on November 07, 2010, 07:14:31 AM
The more Rainbow the better!
I would've loved to have seen DT do Rising as a classic album night. A Light in The Black would be awesome with JP and JR!
Stargazer was fantastic.
Absolutely NO questrion!
Quote from: rumborak on November 07, 2010, 07:27:06 AM
You know, might as well open a tasty can of worms in this thread:
I have to say that exploring old prog has had a directly adverse effect on my appreciation of DT. I don't know, you could of course say that I was naive going into DT, since I assumed that 100% of their ideas came from their own pen. But there's just been so many occasion where years down the road I learned that this awesome riff I always loved was just taken (albeit slightly modified) from some other band's song. Home, Trial of Tears, the ending of Octavarium...
rumborak
It's had the exact opposite for me. It's made me appriciate old prog more, and that with a metral slant, I really dig!
Quote from: Algo Fonix on November 07, 2010, 01:19:45 AM
Those are some boss glasses the therapist is wearing.
I just don't understand, though.
....HA
TAC is dead on. All bands have had their influneces somehow make it into their music consciously or unconsciously.
I feel dumb because I just can't wrap my brain around too much stuff posted around here? I have no clue what this thread is supposed to signify? :tick2:
The Street Of Dreams video and concept = SFAM.
I dunno, I find that a somewhat disingenuous argument. I listen to a lot of bands, many of whom I know (at least to some degree) their influences of. Only Dream Theater goes to the extent of directly taking a riff from another band's song, modifying it slightly and plugging it into their own song.
I mean, if they had put somewhere into the album liner that Trial of Tears contains an hommage to UK's "In the dead of night", that would have been different. Finding out about it years later by accident just gave it a bitter aftertaste.
rumborak
Rainbow = :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
Rising has got to be in the top 3 hard rock albums ever, this song isn't bad either - but Dio is missing from it :(
I had posted this Rainbow vid a while ago, but I think it's obvious DT listened closely to Rainbow - Gates Of Babylon. The wanky Octavarium-like keyboard opening into a Home-like middle-eastern epic riff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu8HiZepRWo
I've always thought that DT's template came from Deep Purple's 5-piece setup (and by extension, Rainbow's as well). It's no small wonder that DT covered all of Made In Japan and Rainbow's Stargazer.
I wasn't saying that the MUSIC was similar, just that the concept for the video is similar to SFAM. Both are awesome, though. :)
Quote from: rumborak on November 07, 2010, 07:55:47 AM
I mean, if they had put somewhere into the album liner that Trial of Tears contains an hommage to UK's "In the dead of night", that would have been different. Finding out about it years later by accident just gave it a bitter aftertaste.
Funny - i've heard both and never put a connection between them. Care to post the time stamps where they are the same?
As for the rip-off factor that you are essentially bringing up - it can be a bit of a turn off. But the question of whether they literally ripped off a riff/musical passage or just were heavily influenced is a difficult thing to conclude. For instance, the beginning of Endless Sacrifice is obviously DT's version of the intro to Metallica's Sanitarium. Does that bother me? No. Ironically enough, Metallica copped a riff from Rush's Tom Sawyer for Sanitarium, but no one ever takes issue with it (that I've seen). Supposedly Rush constructed Tom Sawyer in a similar manner to the Journey track Nickel and Dime (tho I don't hear it). And no one takes issue with Carry On My Wayward Son from Kansas which is a complete rip-off of the early Journey track I'm Gonna Leave You. Take it even further back, look at how many of Led Zeppelin's "own" songs are actually glorified covers, and yet there's no reference to the original whatsoever. And I'm sure you can go on youtube and type in <insert band name> and rip-off and find out that they have borrowed, stolen, whatever a song, riff, musical interlude, etc. Here's a couple I came up in just a couple minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt9Zpu98wqA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuzaaGiNjy0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoyEVTN_h9I&feature=related
and a whole series called "Metal That Sounds Like Other Metal" - here's the 3rd volume of 23:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftsL8hTFIkM&feature=related
So if that is gonna cause you to lose appreciation for DT, better consider not listening to music, because there are many other bands and artists who are doing the same thing, if not worse!
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 07, 2010, 03:09:11 PM
Funny - i've heard both and never put a connection between them. Care to post the time stamps where they are the same?
Whoa, are you serious?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDnNGskWUY (2:58-4:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR004WVV3LE (6:16-7:40)
EDIT: Just listened to your example videos. None even come close to the DT thing IMHO, other than the Satriani/Coldplay one. One video was even just out of ignorance of how guitar playing works.
rumborak
Oh please - dude, you're being ignorant if you mean to tell me that none of them save the Coldplay/Satch one aren't the same as to what you're saying. With regards to the In the Dead of Night (admittedly, it's been a long time since I've heard the track) vs. Trial of Tears, there's no doubt where DT got their influence from for the middle section of the song, but flat out ripping them off and modifying them just enough so that they wouldn't get nailed for plagiarism? Not a chance.
It's not exactly ripped off, but you def. see the influence.
I mean, look at This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KCwrgRSkCI)
Same thing.
To everyone:
Allow me to apologize. I'm glad that the discussion is staying civil and I hope this thread doesn't get locked, but it was never, ever my intention to imply that DT, "ripped off" anyone. I posted this video because I just thought it was interesting.
A guy gets hypnotized and the hypnotherapist ends up being bad in the end.
I just thought that was kind of a cool similarity to SFAM. I never seriously meant that DT ripped that idea off from Rainbow. So, continue the discussion if you will, but as long as my intentions were clear.
DT did a live cover of "In the Dead of Night" at Ronnie Scott's in '95 (available on the "Uncovered" boot). So it was certainly an influence when they began writing tracks for FII the following year. I see it as more of a paying homage than a ripping off.
I recall a gutiar magazine interview in '98 where JP credits the Trial of Tears solo as being very Holdsworth influenced.
During the writing process, DT even names their riffs for similarities of what they sound like (i.e. the "Meshugah" riff on This Dying Soul). They intentionally want to blend different recognizable styles into their songs. Its what makes their songs especially special.
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 07, 2010, 03:30:41 PM
Oh please - dude, you're being ignorant if you mean to tell me that none of them save the Coldplay/Satch one aren't the same as to what you're saying.
I'm saying that for example the video you posted with the "most copied metal riff" was made by someone who has apparently never played guitar.
I'm not saying DT is the only band that rips off. I just find DT's "copying" very blatant, much more blatant than IMHO necessary.
I mean, for example, say JP wants to play a Holdsworth-style guitar solo. Nothing wrong with that, it's a distinct style of guitar playing. Why choose the same bassline in the back, with virtually identical chord progressions? That choice is where, in my opinion, hommage crosses over into rip-off.
rumborak
I don't have a problem with chord progressions. I mean, that's like saying Beethoven, "ripped off" Mozart for using a I-IV-V progression. A chord progression isn't a song, but rather a melody is the song.
Quote from: rumborak on November 07, 2010, 07:05:50 PM
I mean, for example, say JP wants to play a Holdsworth-style guitar solo. Nothing wrong with that, it's a distinct style of guitar playing. Why choose the same bassline in the back, with virtually identical chord progressions? That choice is where, in my opinion, hommage crosses over into rip-off.
I know this exact comparison has come up before, but really, you make it sound like they're exactly the same, and they're just not. Same feel, same guitar sound, but different chords and rhythm, and the bass line is similar but not the exact same. It's an homage maybe, but not a ripoff. I just consider it more of DT wearing their influences on their sleeves.
Quote from: rumborak on November 07, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 07, 2010, 03:09:11 PM
Funny - i've heard both and never put a connection between them. Care to post the time stamps where they are the same?
Whoa, are you serious?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDnNGskWUY (2:58-4:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR004WVV3LE (6:16-7:40
Dude, you've brought the Trial of Tears example up before, and no-one really agree with you then, so why bring it up now and act all surprised that people still don't agree? ;D
Anyway, I agree with this:
Quote from: TAC on November 07, 2010, 07:31:52 AM
It's had the exact opposite for me. It's made me appriciate old prog more, and that with a metral slant, I really dig!
It probably stems from the fact that I rarely ever let myself think the artists I'm listening to 'completely original' anymore.
No one agreed on the ToT thing?
I do!
It's not a direct rip off, but it's DAMN similar.
I agree that the beginning of "Endless Sacrifice" sounds like their homage to Metallica's "Sanitarium," but it also sounds directly lifted from the Michael Jackson song "Give in to Me." I mean, how can you listen to this and not hear it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNQqpJej368
In the case of plagiarism or whatever you want to call it, there is definitely a big difference between sounding like an influence and doing riffs or melodies that sound a lot like those heard in songs by bands you are open about being influences. DT veers into the latter part of that way too often, much more than most other bands. No, they are not the first band to do that, and they won't be the last, but they have been doing it pretty frequently for quite a while now.
Also, that Rainbow song is great! I was always a fan of that song and video growing up. :coolio
Quote from: Adami on November 07, 2010, 09:30:32 PM
No one agreed on the ToT thing?
I do!
It's not a direct rip off, but it's DAMN similar.
You can definitely tell ToT was inspired by it.
Quote from: KevShmev on November 07, 2010, 09:35:33 PM
I agree that the beginning of "Endless Sacrifice" sounds like their homage to Metallica's "Sanitarium," but it also sounds directly lifted from the Michael Jackson song "Give in to Me."
I knew this would be brought up, but I'm pretty confident that it was purely coincidence that it's the same - I can't imagine any of the guys intentionally saying "hey, there's this cool riff in an MJ song that we should incorporate into our song!" I honestly don't believe any of the guys listens to much of MJ, if any at all. And on the chance occurrence that one of them did hear that song, they probably recalled it subconciously, not realizing that it was from an MJ song instead of being an original idea.
Quote from: Algo Fonix on November 07, 2010, 09:36:46 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 07, 2010, 09:30:32 PM
No one agreed on the ToT thing?
I do!
It's not a direct rip off, but it's DAMN similar.
You can definitely tell ToT was inspired by it.
Inspired maybe, but not a huge ripoff, especially when you take the full song into context. I mean granted it's a longer chord progression, so it's a little less likely that it was a complete accident. But DT do longer chord progressions, and sometimes those get borrowed too. It's no big deal. It's like saying the first band to copy the I, IV, V in the 50s were just ripping off someone else. It could be true but after awhile it becomes harder to come up with progressions that are completely unique and sound good. DT may have borrowed a chord progression from UK, but they did it very tastefully so and only as a segueway.
Quote from: Perpetual Change on November 07, 2010, 09:25:37 PM
Dude, you've brought the Trial of Tears example up before, and no-one really agree with you then, so why bring it up now and act all surprised that people still don't agree? ;D
Eh. A lot of people don't hear a lot of things.
rumborak
People hear it, but they just don't think it's that big of a deal, because it really isn't. It's just a similar passage in two otherwise vastly different songs. Compared to other more "genre-specific" bands, the fact that Dream Theater occasionally sound like another band really isn't an issue for me, considering most metal/rock bands are just riding out the same overdone chord progressions for the one millionth time.
Wow, this thread went on a tangent. Anyways, I always say "There are only so many notes on a fretboard or Keyboard" at some point you have played them all. Music is one big revolving wheel with different personalities thrown into the songs. As, time goes on there will be nothing new and excitiing, until a new generation comes along that forgot what the last one did.
So, anyway, does ANYONE find it interesting that the band Rainbow made a music video with a guy getting hypnotized who has dreams about a girl, then wakes up to find that the hypnotherapist is really the bad guy at the end? Anyone....?
Quote from: SnakeEyes on November 08, 2010, 07:03:50 AM
So, anyway, does ANYONE find it interesting that the band Rainbow made a music video with a guy getting hypnotized who has dreams about a girl, then wakes up to find that the hypnotherapist is really the bad guy at the end? Anyone....?
In all honesty, Snake Eyes, hasn't SFAM already been accused of being a bunch of 'typical' concept album elements thrown together? I've definitely heard criticisms that SFAM is like a 'concept album by the numbers' but I really don't know how valid that is.
I'm not accusing it of anything. I love SFAM, it's one of my favorite albums. I'm just saying..... eh, nevermind. bosk, hef.... someone.... please delete this thread. LOL
..... this thread is what some would describe as an, "EPIC FAIL."
Hold on, Snake Eyes. I just came across some even more obscure evidence that points to the guys being Rainbow fans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Clouds_&_Silver_Linings#Special_edition_tracks
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2010, 04:32:30 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 07, 2010, 09:35:33 PM
I agree that the beginning of "Endless Sacrifice" sounds like their homage to Metallica's "Sanitarium," but it also sounds directly lifted from the Michael Jackson song "Give in to Me."
I knew this would be brought up, but I'm pretty confident that it was purely coincidence that it's the same - I can't imagine any of the guys intentionally saying "hey, there's this cool riff in an MJ song that we should incorporate into our song!" I honestly don't believe any of the guys listens to much of MJ, if any at all. And on the chance occurrence that one of them did hear that song, they probably recalled it subconciously, not realizing that it was from an MJ song instead of being an original idea.
I doubt DT ever does it on purpose, but it is difficult to deny that stuff from other artists creeps into their songs on a regular basis:
-The beginning of "Trial of Tears" sounds like a combination of Rush's "Xanada" (the drum fills) and Yes' "Close to the Edge" (the keys)
-The very-obvious "Blackened" vocal melody in "This Dying Soul"
-The bass during the intro of "Home" sounding just like Tool's "Forty Six and Two"
-The Muse riff in "Never Enough"
-The keyboard lead before the first and second verses in "Solitary Shell" sounding like the middle section of Yes' "And You and I"
-Rush's "The Spirit of Radio" guitar lead in "The Best of Times"
-Ozzy Osbourne's "Diary of a Madman" part in "Sacrificed Sons"
-etc.
No, I don't think it is that big a deal, but it is almost impossible to deny that identical riffs and melodies from other bands' music often find their way into DT's songs. I guess they just have a lot of "pure coincidences," right? :biggrin:
Quote from: DeanTheater on November 08, 2010, 06:30:11 AM
Anyways, I always say "There are only so many notes on a fretboard or Keyboard" at some point you have played them all.
Yikes, this is always the worst argument. It's like saying that "there are only so many words in the English language, so sooner or later you're bound to write Hamlet out of accident."
rumborak
Quote from: rumborak on November 08, 2010, 07:52:02 AMthere are only so many words in the English language, so sooner or later you're bound to write Hamlet out of accident.
That actually happened to me last week.
Quote from: bösk1 on November 08, 2010, 07:53:57 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 08, 2010, 07:52:02 AMthere are only so many words in the English language, so sooner or later you're bound to write Hamlet out of accident.
That actually happened to me last week.
That actually happened to me last week.
rumborak
rumborak
rumborak
SHADDUP! lol
Instead of a Samba, we're all going to does the Rumba!!! Do the Rumba..........
Quote from: KevShmev on November 08, 2010, 07:29:31 AM
No, I don't think it is that big a deal, but it is almost impossible to deny that identical riffs and melodies from other bands' music often find their way into DT's songs. I guess they just have a lot of "pure coincidences," right? :biggrin:
Oh I wouldn't say any of the things you've cited are pure coincidences in the least bit - all of those were doing their take on ideas that those bands (whom they respect and were influenced by) came up with previously. Obviously a matter of "hey I really like the way that _________ has that ___________ part in that song - let's try to do something like that in this song we're working on."
In the case of Endless Sacrifice and Give in to Me, I'd wager that was a out and out coincidence.
Quote from: Orbert on November 08, 2010, 09:50:36 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 08, 2010, 08:23:49 AM
rumborak
rumborak
rumborak
I like that rumborak always signs his posts because, even though his name and avatar are right there, indicating the author of the post, you can never really be sure...
I've had bad experiences, trust me. Imposters, such as rumborka, are always just around the corner.
rumborak
Quote from: rumborak on November 08, 2010, 12:31:02 PM
I've had bad experiences, trust me. Imposters, such as rumborka, are always just around the corner.
rumborak
Good point. That must really infuriate them. They about to finish posting as you and then BAM! Foiled!
It's like Surprise Buttsechs.
rumborak
Surprise Buttsechs
Surprise Buttsechs