I always liked "Tai Shan" 

Quote from: WDADU on August 04, 2024, 07:05:38 PMI always liked "Tai Shan" 

So you're the one!?

Quote from: TAC on August 04, 2024, 12:20:37 PM1    Learning To Live

No way, that's my favourite too!

Quote from: CraftyCaleb2483 on August 05, 2024, 12:52:42 AMNo way, that's my favourite too!

It's my #1 song of all time by any band.

Quote from: TAC on August 05, 2024, 03:16:10 AMIt's my #1 song of all time by any band.

Same!

Quote from: pg1067 on August 04, 2024, 05:22:55 PMEveryone's got opinions, but stating opinions as though they're unassailable facts is colossally obnoxious.  Stating that anyone whose opinion differs from yours has "lower standards" is narcissistically ignorant.

I've been a fan of the band for more than a decade longer than you, so I'm pretty sure that my "understand[ing] [of] what Dream Theater fans pre-2011 are about" is at least as good as, if not better than, yours.  I can assure you that there was no "mass exodus of this band's oldest fans from places like this . . . when Portnoy left the band."  THAT is a matter of fact, and it's something about which you're just plain wrong (and I'm quite confident you have absolutely no evidence of this and just expect those of us who know better than you to take your word for it).

By the way, in my opinion, no MM-era album is better than 7th, and 3 of my bottom 5 albums are from the era.  However, if someone enjoys those albums better than my favorite albums, more power to them.  It's just not necessary to belittle people for having different opinions about music.

Fan since 1992, and I second this post (even down, more or less, to the rankings). 

Quote from: Jamesman42 on August 04, 2024, 09:06:26 AMOctavarium and The Count of Tuscany, whatchu mean

Yeah, James, I'm with you on this hot take.  I have Breaking All Illusions at #117 on my list.  At rough count that means that it's not as good (IMO) as 16 of the 22 songs on the last three MP records.

(double post, sorry)

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on August 03, 2024, 07:51:28 AMCan't speak for anyone else, but it was always my least favorite song on HYF and never really liked it that much. In fact, I probably appreciate it more now as I'm older than I did before, but still not a big fan of it. Surprised you ranked it ahead of those songs that you listed; while most are overplayed, I prefer them to Tai Shan. Then again, you are Stads! 
 

Well, that's why I said people will deny it.  But I LOVE Hold Your Fire; I think from a song perspective, it's one of their best albums (it's no. 6 on my list) and is only held back by the arrangements and "sound" choices.  If I ever won the lottery I would ask Alex and Geddy to record an acoustic version of that record and give a brazilian dollars to their favorite charity (that would've been a better idea were Neil still with us, though).  "Tai Shan" never stood out to me as being subpar on that album, but then again, if memory serves, it's my second lowest ranked on that album.  That's probably got something to do with it as well.

Quote from: DT05 on August 04, 2024, 06:44:39 AMI heard all five Mangini albums within the week that each one came out, as a fan of this band for nearly 20 years. I'm sorry that you're this unable to see somebody have an opinion against Mangini but I shouldn't be surprised, there was a mass exodus of this band's oldest fans from places like this (rightly so) when Portnoy left the band, the remnant left behind are those with lower standards such as yourself. Quite frankly I don't think you even understand what Dream Theater fans pre-2011 are about. That's fine! But Mangini era is the absolute bottom of the barrel, even WDADU looks better in the wake of all of that.

I totally get where you're coming from, and I appreciate your perspective as a long-time fan. It's clear you're passionate about Dream Theater and have a deep connection to the band's history, which is something I respect a lot.

I've been a huge fan of Dream Theater for years myself, and I also experienced the transition from Portnoy to Mangini in real-time like you did, so I can understand how significant that change must have felt. Portnoy was a monumental part of the band, and his departure was bound to stir up strong emotions. That said, I think it's important to recognize the evolution of the band and how Mangini has brought his own unique style and energy to the table. Sure, his approach is different, but I feel like he's added a new layer of complexity and precision to their sound. Albums like "A Dramatic Turn of Events" and "Distance Over Time" have moments that really resonate with me and show the band's continued growth and experimentation.

I don't see it as having lower standards; I just think that every era of Dream Theater has something unique to offer. The Mangini era may not be your favorite, and that's totally valid, but I think it's also brought in new fans and kept the band pushing forward creatively. At the end of the day, we all have different tastes and preferences, especially when it comes to a band as diverse and complex as Dream Theater. Let's celebrate the fact that their music, in all its forms, has touched so many people in different ways. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I hope we can continue to have these kinds of discussions with respect for each other's viewpoints.

Quote from: Stadler on August 05, 2024, 05:01:41 AMI have Breaking All Illusions at #117 on my list.

It's always so interesting to see how the songs rank over various POV's throughout the fandom.

BAI is literally in my top three. 🥈

Quote from: crystalstars17 on August 05, 2024, 07:29:50 AM

It's always so interesting to see how the songs rank over various POV's throughout the fandom.

BAI is literally in my top three. 🥈

I've really started to enjoy it a lot recently on subsequent album playthroughs

Quote from: TheHoveringSojourn808 on August 05, 2024, 07:27:40 AMI don't see it as having lower standards; I just think that every era of Dream Theater has something unique to offer. The Mangini era may not be your favorite, and that's totally valid, but I think it's also brought in new fans and kept the band pushing forward creatively. At the end of the day, we all have different tastes and preferences, especially when it comes to a band as diverse and complex as Dream Theater. Let's celebrate the fact that their music, in all its forms, has touched so many people in different ways. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I hope we can continue to have these kinds of discussions with respect for each other's viewpoints.

This 💯  The "lower standards" thing is really unnecessary and hurtful and it's borderline breaking some of the forum rules.

Quote from: DT05 on August 04, 2024, 06:44:39 AMI heard all five Mangini albums within the week that each one came out, as a fan of this band for nearly 20 years. I'm sorry that you're this unable to see somebody have an opinion against Mangini but I shouldn't be surprised, there was a mass exodus of this band's oldest fans from places like this (rightly so) when Portnoy left the band, the remnant left behind are those with lower standards such as yourself. Quite frankly I don't think you even understand what Dream Theater fans pre-2011 are about. That's fine! But Mangini era is the absolute bottom of the barrel, even WDADU looks better in the wake of all of that.

And you still haven't answered the question I directly asked you in my previous post. What a shocker.

And they won't. What do you expect from someone with so much blind prejudice that all they can come up with is "lower standards". I mean really. 🙄

Quote from: crystalstars17 on August 05, 2024, 02:17:32 PMAnd they won't. What do you expect from someone with so much blind prejudice that all they can come up with is "lower standards". I mean really. 🙄

as I mentioned above: that will tell us that *the person* is highly likely to have lower standards for DT, not necessarily anyone else. And MM era being described to be low standard is hilarious (and absurd)

Then again, said person soon will have 11 albums of MP era DT at their disposal. (which should be far more than enough) I have five of them at my disposal, of which I regularly listen to three. That's ok, I like it like that. (currently listening to View as I type this btw)

Quote from: Trav86 on August 04, 2024, 07:08:32 PMSo you're the one!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gajyld-gWbU (I had to, sorry  )

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 05, 2024, 02:48:07 PMAnd MM era being described to be low standard is hilarious (and absurd)

Isn't it now!

^While I cannot believe ANYONE could be happier than I that MP is back with DT, I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT blame MM for any issues with the last 3 albums (1 abomination and 2 below average).

The quality of the last few albums was not MM's fault. He merely did what he was asked to do.

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 05, 2024, 02:48:07 PMas I mentioned above: that will tell us that *the person* is highly likely to have lower standards for DT, not necessarily anyone else. And MM era being described to be low standard is hilarious (and absurd)

Then again, said person soon will have 11 albums of MP era DT at their disposal. (which should be far more than enough) I have five of them at my disposal, of which I regularly listen to three. That's ok, I like it like that. (currently listening to View as I type this btw)

Look, I'm not defending the position here, I think there's trolling going on, but let's not just pile on and add more hate on top of hate.  It certainly depends on WHAT standard he's using.  I don't care for the MM years as much as I do the MP years. I feel - and this is just my taste; I'm not trying to make anything "objective" here - that Mangini's playing is intrusive to the song more than it should be.  That's MY standard, and I don't expect anyone else to share it, or agree with it.  It FEELS like there are an order of magnitude bass drum hits on the Mangini songs.  EVERY SONG feels like it's a rat-a-tat-tat-tat of bass drum, even the ballads.  I get it, Dream Theater are players and their music is wankery in the best possible way. It's something I love about the band, but it's not the ONLY part of the band. 

I've written before that I believe the magic of DT as compared to it's brethren (and sistren) in the genre is that they ALSO have great songs.  And TO ME, in serving the song, the wankery has to be integrated.   How many complain about the SC and BC&SL era where there was "wankery" just "tacked on" to the song.  I don't always agree with that, but I understand the criticism. King Crimson was a band of wankers too, and yet there's "Trio" on which drummer Bill Bruford famously got a writing credit for making the artistic choice to not play a note on the song.  To my ears, there is no such moment in the Mangini-era DT catalogue.

Erm, what's wankery in this context??

Extraordinary instrumental accomplishment.  And I do not mean it to be derogatory at all; I think I might have said that it's part of the reason I listen to Dream Theater.

Apart from a few examples where I feel it can be applied to a whole record, in this case stuff like Awake and FII I never felt the "wankery" aspect of things were any more or less prevalent in the MP era vs the MM era.

I do think they are very different drummers and certain MP songs didn't sound quite right with MM to me but there are also MM songs where I think MP will not be able to do it equal justice either.

The MM era for me was uneven but not any more or less so on a song by song basis than anything the band put out with MP post Scenes.

Quote from: efx on August 06, 2024, 06:59:16 AMthere are also MM songs where I think MP will not be able to do it equal justice either.

I can't agree more. MM just had that next level of precision.

But I'm still interested to see MP try. There are certain songs that may sound interesting in his, how can I say it, more forceful(?) style.

Oh yes I agree. I'm not preemptively writing MP off, it's just his approach to drum parts is so different from MM's that  I think there's a high probability he'll come across as MM did in some specific MP songs.

Quote from: Stadler on August 06, 2024, 06:21:30 AMLook, I'm not defending the position here, I think there's trolling going on, but let's not just pile on and add more hate on top of hate.  It certainly depends on WHAT standard he's using.  I don't care for the MM years as much as I do the MP years. I feel - and this is just my taste; I'm not trying to make anything "objective" here - that Mangini's playing is intrusive to the song more than it should be.  That's MY standard, and I don't expect anyone else to share it, or agree with it.  It FEELS like there are an order of magnitude bass drum hits on the Mangini songs.  EVERY SONG feels like it's a rat-a-tat-tat-tat of bass drum, even the ballads.  I get it, Dream Theater are players and their music is wankery in the best possible way. It's something I love about the band, but it's not the ONLY part of the band. 

I've written before that I believe the magic of DT as compared to it's brethren (and sistren) in the genre is that they ALSO have great songs.  And TO ME, in serving the song, the wankery has to be integrated.  How many complain about the SC and BC&SL era where there was "wankery" just "tacked on" to the song.  I don't always agree with that, but I understand the criticism. King Crimson was a band of wankers too, and yet there's "Trio" on which drummer Bill Bruford famously got a writing credit for making the artistic choice to not play a note on the song.  To my ears, there is no such moment in the Mangini-era DT catalogue.

Stadler - I definitely see/hear your point with this, and for the most part I agree.  I love MM as a drummer, he was fun to watch live (and on youtube explaining wtf he's doing), and I really appreciate what he did to keep the DT train going.  The albums they released with him have some incredible music on them -  I just don't know that he 'played for the song' as well as MP.  I've read your thoughts on this multiple times, where is seems MP can play any time sig and make it sound 4/4 (with the opposite being true for MM) and when I listen to the MP vs MM discography, this became apparent to me, too.

The more I think of it, though, I have to ask - does that really fall on MM?  Kind of seems to me like the Producer would have the final say, and maybe what we hear was more MM's interpretation of feedback/direction he received from the Producer.  It's not a secret they were blown away by what he could do technically, they've each mentioned it multiple times over the course of the past 10+ years.  I kind of wonder if they just wanted to go as balls to the wall w the drums as they could, even if it wasn't what MM originally came up w to fit the song.  Just thinking out loud.

Quote from: efx on August 06, 2024, 07:20:20 AMI'm not preemptively writing MP off

Oh I know, and I'm one of the last ones here who would ever accuse you or anyone else of that 😅 If anything, I think I'd be expected by the majority here to write MP off 🤣 But I hope that by saying that I'm interested, if not cautiously optimistic, about hearing him play MM's songs shows otherwise.

Honestly, as a 'sometimes' drummer here, I would never expect someone (even MP) to just digitally copy another drummers parts.

Trust me, MP is perfectly capable of listening to a song, absorbing the arrangement, and then playing it along with the band. MM wrote some crazy fills, but the songs are still songs, and MP's specialty is memorizing arrangements.

As for playing 64th note para-diddles single-handed with his toes while sticking his tongue out (I kid, I kid), who knows. The vast majority of the audience would never know the difference. And for those who do, I'd presume that any alterations MP makes are a show of respect (the dude has never claimed to be God's gift to drumming and is always very deferential to other players).

While most of this MP v. MM discussion is all in good fun, the trolling from some of these newcomers is really starting the mess up the vibe around here.

Seriously, can't we all just enjoy what we had while looking forward to what we are about receive?

Quote from: Awaken on August 06, 2024, 07:27:59 AMStadler - I definitely see/hear your point with this, and for the most part I agree.  I love MM as a drummer, he was fun to watch live (and on youtube explaining wtf he's doing), and I really appreciate what he did to keep the DT train going.  The albums they released with him have some incredible music on them -  I just don't know that he 'played for the song' as well as MP.  I've read your thoughts on this multiple times, where is seems MP can play any time sig and make it sound 4/4 (with the opposite being true for MM) and when I listen to the MP vs MM discography, this became apparent to me, too.

The more I think of it, though, I have to ask - does that really fall on MM?  Kind of seems to me like the Producer would have the final say, and maybe what we hear was more MM's interpretation of feedback/direction he received from the Producer.  It's not a secret they were blown away by what he could do technically, they've each mentioned it multiple times over the course of the past 10+ years.  I kind of wonder if they just wanted to go as balls to the wall w the drums as they could, even if it wasn't what MM originally came up w to fit the song.  Just thinking out loud.

Oh, I absolutely think you're probably at least partly right. I'm not really in a position to stick this all on Mangini.  But that goes again to the "locker room" mentality.  Would Mangini push back? Who knows (but there is some evidence that the answer is "no", at least not aggressively)?  Would Portnoy? Who knows (but there is some evidence that the answer is "yes").  It's all part of the dynamic, a dynamic we can't really know for sure unless we're in the room. 

(Though I will offer this; I kind of dig John's solo records, and at least with TV, even though that was some aggressive playing from Portnoy, I never once thought "GOD I wish Portnoy would just take a breath and play the SONG".  So even though John was likely telling Mike P. what to play on the solo stuff, there had to be some different dynamic at play.)

Quote from: Stadler on August 06, 2024, 06:21:30 AMLook, I'm not defending the position here, I think there's trolling going on, but let's not just pile on and add more hate on top of hate.  It certainly depends on WHAT standard he's using.  I don't care for the MM years as much as I do the MP years. I feel - and this is just my taste; I'm not trying to make anything "objective" here - that Mangini's playing is intrusive to the song more than it should be.  That's MY standard, and I don't expect anyone else to share it, or agree with it.  It FEELS like there are an order of magnitude bass drum hits on the Mangini songs.  EVERY SONG feels like it's a rat-a-tat-tat-tat of bass drum, even the ballads.  I get it, Dream Theater are players and their music is wankery in the best possible way. It's something I love about the band, but it's not the ONLY part of the band. 

I've written before that I believe the magic of DT as compared to it's brethren (and sistren) in the genre is that they ALSO have great songs.  And TO ME, in serving the song, the wankery has to be integrated.   How many complain about the SC and BC&SL era where there was "wankery" just "tacked on" to the song.  I don't always agree with that, but I understand the criticism. King Crimson was a band of wankers too, and yet there's "Trio" on which drummer Bill Bruford famously got a writing credit for making the artistic choice to not play a note on the song.  To my ears, there is no such moment in the Mangini-era DT catalogue.

Yeah I see your point. And thanks for mentioning Trio on Starless And Bible Black. Such a bold move by Bill Bruford. I should throw it on again.

Quote from: Stadler on August 06, 2024, 06:53:55 AMExtraordinary instrumental accomplishment.  And I do not mean it to be derogatory at all; I think I might have said that it's part of the reason I listen to Dream Theater.

Your definition of "wankery" is different from what I've always understood, and I think different from most, in that you don't mean it to be derogatory.  One can be a virtuoso, extremely accomplished on their instrument, without their compositions seeming to be constructed specifically to show off this virtuosity without contributing thematically.  I think that's where most people draw the line.  Wankery = "Okay now you're just showing off".

I too sometimes like to hear JP and JR do their amazing 64th-note unison and harmonic runs, and it's indeed wankery, but it's to be consumed in small quantities.  I mean, wankery literally connotes musical masturbation; doing it just because it feels good.  Come to think of it, however, some people are fine with doing that all the time, too. 

Quote from: Orbert on August 06, 2024, 08:35:59 AMI mean, wankery literally connotes musical masturbation; doing it just because it feels good.  Come to think of it, however, some people are fine with doing that all the time, too. 

Uhhhm, I regret asking that question now lol, this is getting weird...

Quote from: CraftyCaleb2483 on August 06, 2024, 09:45:43 AMUhhhm, I regret asking that question now lol, this is getting weird...

Hey, if it feels good, do it

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 06, 2024, 10:50:50 AMHey, if it feels good, do it

I don't think that's how life works...