I just want to say 'thank you' to all of you for explaining the roulette thing...I have seriously been ignoring those threads for years bc I didn't understand what was happening.

Quick question: the 'points' assigned and ranking are all arbitrary, correct? Like, each thread creator makes their own rules?

Quote from: WilliamMunny on August 23, 2024, 05:14:53 PMI just want to say 'thank you' to all of you for explaining the roulette thing...I have seriously been ignoring those threads for years bc I didn't understand what was happening.

Quick question: the 'points' assigned and ranking are all arbitrary, correct? Like, each thread creator makes their own rules?

Yeah, so if I'm running the roulette, everyone sends me a song for that particular round.
I give the songs a few listens and then I assign scores depending on how much I like them.

So the scores are up to how the host grades them. Some people are motivated by trying to score well by selecting songs the host may like. Others are simply happy to share songs that they like.  There no wrong way to play, but at the end of the roulette, there's going to be a winner with the highest score.


I tell all first time players that you have to have some thick skin. Part of the fun is the ball busting, but it's not always so fun when you send a song that you LOVE, and the host gives it a poor score.

Quote from: TAC on August 23, 2024, 08:13:30 AMI rate WDADU fairly high, and it's not so much that I listen to it hardly at all. It's the fact that I'd tak those songs as a group and put them up against most of their albums.

I know what you mean.  The production and Charlie's voice hold it back from being something I can listen to often, but the songwriting was already there at the outset.  If they had recorded this album in 1992 with James and better production and with Kevin Moore still in the band, I'd probably consider it a top 5 DT record.

When Dream and Day Reunite doesn't elevate it at all for me since they play some of the parts differently and Jordan, let's just say, embellishes some of the original keyboard parts too much for my tastes. 

Quote from: KevShmev on August 24, 2024, 05:36:26 AMJordan, let's just say, embellishes some of the original keyboard parts too much for my tastes. 

I remember when WDADR came out, and I considered checking it out, but this reminded me why I didn't.  It was mentioned more than once, which is enough for me.

I consider the first album a pretty good debut, a very good debut, actually.  There are definitely some good-to-great moments on it, but when I feel like listening to some Dream Theater, there are too many other choices, so WDADU never gets played anymore.

That's fair. If MM's overly technical drumming can be a (don't mean this to sound so strongly) a turn off, I'm sure Jordan's playing can be viewed the same, especially compared to Kevin Moore.

Quote from: KevShmev on August 24, 2024, 05:36:26 AMThe production and Charlie's voice hold it back from being something I can listen to often, but the songwriting was already there at the outset.  If they had recorded this album in 1992 with James and better production and with Kevin Moore still in the band, I'd probably consider it a top 5 DT record.

I totally agree. I really like this album and as you said - the songwriting was already there. No "immature writing" as the criticism usually is towards the album (sometimes even from within the band itself). Granted I have it ranked on the bottom half in their discography, but with a better production plus JLB it would climb many spots - just listen to the countless live versions of the various songs. They definitively hold up. 

Quote from: Zydar on August 24, 2024, 08:15:02 AMI totally agree. I really like this album and as you said - the songwriting was already there. No "immature writing" as the criticism usually is towards the album (sometimes even from within the band itself). Granted I have it ranked on the bottom half in their discography, but with a better production plus JLB it would climb many spots - just listen to the countless live versions of the various songs. They definitively hold up.

Indeed they do.  I also think there was more charm in their showy playing in the early years, as they were young and still eager to prove themselves.  As they have gotten older, it sometimes feels like "yeah, our chops are awesome and let's show you for the 2,932nd time!" And that does get in the way of the songs at times, IMO. They still have written plenty of good songs across all albums, but I am a fan who loved to see them take the Falling into Infinity more balanced approach where it is all about the songs and then maybe throw in a bit of flash just once in a while. I won't hold my breathe, though.

There are also things that they did in WDADU that they rarely did ever since, I would honestly love to hear some lead bass playing from Myung. Some of my favorite bass lines come from WDADU.

Quote from: ReaperKK on August 24, 2024, 07:02:25 PMThere are also things that they did in WDADU that they rarely did ever since, I would honestly love to hear some lead bass playing from Myung. Some of my favorite bass lines come from WDADU.

YES! I wish this were a thing in the DT sound.

Quote from: ReaperKK on August 24, 2024, 07:02:25 PMThere are also things that they did in WDADU that they rarely did ever since, I would honestly love to hear some lead bass playing from Myung. Some of my favorite bass lines come from WDADU.

Agreed! I do feel that over the years, besides bass volume on mixes that have been quite good last couple of albums, JM has lost a lot of those neat spots to shine he had on DT music.

Quote from: ReaperKK on August 24, 2024, 07:02:25 PMThere are also things that they did in WDADU that they rarely did ever since, I would honestly love to hear some lead bass playing from Myung. Some of my favorite bass lines come from WDADU.

I believe this was brought up by MP during the commentary for WDADRU. I think JM was kinda told (by a producer maybe? David Prater?) to hang back and not play so much lead bass and to support the rest of the band with his playing, and he settled into that role. I vaguely remember MP encouraging him to try and bring this style back.

I actually went back and listened to WDADRU with commentary last year and it was kind of a bummer to hear MP dismiss JM when he brought up just simply jamming in a room together.

Yeah, I remember JM bringing that up. Though, I do understand MP's point. At that point in time (2004), they had completely different lives than in the late '80s when they used to jam together for 8 hours a day. Most of them had younger kids. I think nowadays, he'd be more open to the idea taking some time just to jam in the studio, especially now that they have their own space and aren't paying for it. Who knows, maybe that's what they did for the new album!

Myung indeed has some pretty killer contribution to that album, I didn't realize that it was because of the way that album was made.

Quote from: OpenYourEyes311 on August 26, 2024, 05:53:59 AMI believe this was brought up by MP during the commentary for WDADRU. I think JM was kinda told (by a producer maybe? David Prater?) to hang back and not play so much lead bass and to support the rest of the band with his playing, and he settled into that role. I vaguely remember MP encouraging him to try and bring this style back.

My recollection was that it was more about the overall orchestration.  They had bass, guitar, and keyboards all competing in the same frequency range.  So, they moved JM down to a lower register that wasn't so crowded.  I think that's a good thing, overall, but do think he could still have "lead bass" spots here and there.

Quote from: ZirconBlue on August 26, 2024, 10:19:12 AMMy recollection was that it was more about the overall orchestration.  They had bass, guitar, and keyboards all competing in the same frequency range.  So, they moved JM down to a lower register that wasn't so crowded.  I think that's a good thing, overall, but do think he could still have "lead bass" spots here and there.

Yeah that sounds right. And I agree, a couple lead bass spots would be awesome to hear these days.

Comment to bring this thread back to the top, since it was actually created this year, not in 2010.

Quote from: Stadler on August 19, 2024, 06:29:31 AMAnd I got distracted by a post about the Yes setlist... my God, some of these people are either stupid, can't read, or are purposefully obtuse.  One post: "Why is it so short?"   One or two down: "They're opening for Deep Purple."   Two or three down: "Why is it so short? They're lame!"  It's one thing to not know; I get it, you can't keep up with everything, but to then JUDGE when you don't know?   WTF?  And the interspersed posts about Deep Purple.  Literally half the posts seemingly don't know that Blackmore isn't in the band - he's been gone now for 31 years.  31 YEARS. Too many to count that talk about Jon Lord and Chris Squire in the present tense (Lord passed 12 years ago, Squire 9).

And of course, I'm not even digging into the obligatory (but, IMO, ignorant) posts about "original members".  Although, I should: more posts say Yes has "one original member" (it has NONE at this point, with Squire's passing, but has one "classic member", Steve Howe) and Purple "has no original members" (it has ONE original, Paice, and THREE classic members, Paice, Gillan and Glover).

What is that saying?  Better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're stupid than to open it and prove them right?  Or something like that?

WOW. Yeah, I don't get involved in that. That's not to say I don't visit sometimes. This week I went to Portnoy's Facebook page to see what he posted since Memorial Day which was around the last time I last checked it and caught up on the likely final episode of Fish On Friday. But I don't usually read comments because I waste enough time as it is.(Like rewatching decades old hockey games on You Tube.)

Quote from: DTwwbwMP on August 21, 2024, 10:39:26 AM2 reasons. 1. TA belongs at the bottom of ANY list because it's a horrible mess. Is much better LIVE. 2. WDADU is usually towards the bottom simply because of two things. 1) production 2) vocals (charlie was just not a fit).

They're both near the top on my album groupings for different reasons. If the lyrics were slightly better than the average Dream Theater album it would have been a masterpiece.

the guy got banned, no need to worry

Quote from: Orbert on August 22, 2024, 08:36:13 AMI find other people's views on music to be slightly interesting sometimes, but I've gotten to the point where very little surprises me anymore.  Someone really likes something that I think is pretty lame?  Fine, I'm glad they get a kick from it, because I don't.  The pop charts are full of hundreds of songs that people obviously like a lot but I wouldn't listen to.  Meanwhile, I listen to stuff that most people don't even realize exists, let alone appreciate.  And that's fine, too.

I guess it's for that reason that I don't quite get DTF's obsession with ranking things, and survivors, and roulettes.  I still don't understand what a roulette thread is.  When it's all said and done, I see that there are things that most people apparently really like that I don't, and I like stuff that others apparently don't.  But I already knew that.  When a discussion devolves into ten posts in a row of people ranking albums, or songs, or bands, or whatever, I scroll past it all, as is my right.

Frustration comes from a different place.  Frustration is trying to find music to listen to in the car when my wife and I are travelling together.  I'd love to listen to some good prog, but it bores the hell out of her.  She's not into the pop crap that fills the airwaves, but her tastes definitely lean more mainstream.  Frustration is wishing she liked the same stuff I like because then we could enjoy it together.  But alas, different people have different tastes.

I can maybe count on two hands the number of bands my wife and I have diverging opinions about. I know how fortunate I am.

Don't get the ranking thing either. To, me most of it is so incremental as to not make a much of a difference anyway, but people seem to like it which is fine but I can never distill my experiences with music like that. I just move along as well.

Quote from: WilliamMunny on August 22, 2024, 08:42:21 AMI'm glad I'm not the only one!

I don't know either!

Quote from: ytserush on August 31, 2024, 04:57:30 PMI can maybe count on two hands the number of bands my wife and I have diverging opinions about. I know how fortunate I am.

Don't get the ranking thing either. To, me most of it is so incremental as to not make a much of a difference anyway, but people seem to like it which is fine but I can never distill my experiences with music like that. I just move along as well.

HAHAHAHA, we obviously have a lot in common musically, bit on both of these we diverge pretty starkly.

My wife and I have little in common musically.  We try to see Keith Urban when he comes around, and we had fun at the Country Music Hall of Fame (and I'm sure if we were ever in Cleveland, we'd have the same experience at the RnRHoF) but she has zero desire to see any prog or anything like that.  It's fine; that's just never been one of the criteria for me. Maybe it's too many bad experiences in the past!  "This sucks!!!" "I want to go home!" "I have to pee!" Hahaha

And the rankings; I don't think of music that way - I like what I like - and I struggle because so much of what I listen to is dependent on my mood, but it's always fun to stimulate conversation. 

RE: Rankings

I've noticed this come up a few times here, and as someone who LOVES to post/write/discuss rankings, I'd like to offer the following perspective.

For me, the idea of saying something along the lines, "these are my top-5 DT songs/albums" dates all the way back to my childhood.

I don't know about everyone else, but ranking, well, anything was pretty much a daily occurrence among me and my friends. There were many a lunch periods spent discussing the best NBA players (Jordan? Hakeem? Barkley?), NFL teams (lol, NOT the Browns), and especially bands.

For me, it was always about conversation generation, and ALWAYS came from a place of love and respect. I would never waste my lunch period discussing an artist I didn't love. I mean, who wants to rank all the Kid Rock records? (kidding, or course)

I spent most of my 20s managing a record store, and 'Top 5' conversations often aided in breaking up the monotony of a long shift. 'Desert Island' conversations were also an ongoing theme. Again, the point was to keep the conversation going.

Of course, it's completely fine to just say, "I love [insert band here]" and leave it at that, but if we have the next 10 hours to spend together, odds are we're eventually going to start 'ranking' those damn albums. Or not. And that's completely fine as well.

But, for anyone wondering about this "compulsion to rank things," that's my take on it. It's less about coming up with an objective concrete order, and more about finding some common ground for an ongoing conversation.

Yeah, rankings are just a bit of fun and good fodder for conversation. Mine are always subject to change anyway.

I found it easier to rank stuff when I was younger, somehow it's harder nowadays. Don't know why.

I've been toying with making a Top 50 favourite band/artist for a while now, just for my own enjoyment and not necessarily for sharing, but it's really difficult to whittle it down to 50 after having discovered so much music during my lifetime. 

It does get harder the more stuff you have to rank!

Tiered ranking is a good way to rank a whole bunch of stuff without getting hung up on the exact ordinal rank.

Quote from: WilliamMunny on September 03, 2024, 07:37:22 AMRE: Rankings

I've noticed this come up a few times here, and as someone who LOVES to post/write/discuss rankings, I'd like to offer the following perspective.

For me, the idea of saying something along the lines, "these are my top-5 DT songs/albums" dates all the way back to my childhood.

I don't know about everyone else, but ranking, well, anything was pretty much a daily occurrence among me and my friends. There were many a lunch periods spent discussing the best NBA players (Jordan? Hakeem? Barkley?), NFL teams (lol, NOT the Browns), and especially bands.

For me, it was always about conversation generation, and ALWAYS came from a place of love and respect. I would never waste my lunch period discussing an artist I didn't love. I mean, who wants to rank all the Kid Rock records? (kidding, or course)

I spent most of my 20s managing a record store, and 'Top 5' conversations often aided in breaking up the monotony of a long shift. 'Desert Island' conversations were also an ongoing theme. Again, the point was to keep the conversation going.

Of course, it's completely fine to just say, "I love [insert band here]" and leave it at that, but if we have the next 10 hours to spend together, odds are we're eventually going to start 'ranking' those damn albums. Or not. And that's completely fine as well.

But, for anyone wondering about this "compulsion to rank things," that's my take on it. It's less about coming up with an objective concrete order, and more about finding some common ground for an ongoing conversation.

Something I forgot to add...I am rarely, if ever, married to an opinion.

I love the conversation that leaves me reconsidering something...a big part of why this site is always sitting idle as an open tab in my browser.

Quote from: Zydar on September 03, 2024, 07:45:57 AMI found it easier to rank stuff when I was younger, somehow it's harder nowadays. Don't know why.

I've been toying with making a Top 50 favourite band/artist for a while now, just for my own enjoyment and not necessarily for sharing, but it's really difficult to whittle it down to 50 after having discovered so much music during my lifetime.

I'd have a hard time getting up to 50.

Quote from: ReaperKK on August 26, 2024, 06:18:41 AMI actually went back and listened to WDADRU with commentary last year and it was kind of a bummer to hear MP dismiss JM when he brought up just simply jamming in a room together.

I think JM spoke more during that commentary track than he has, in total, in every other commentary track/documentary.  He appeared genuinely excited about what he was saying, and I too thought MP really was a wet blanket.

Quote from: HOF on September 03, 2024, 07:42:05 AMMine are always subject to change anyway.

Yeah, I think this is why I tend to feel the compulsion to rank things less these days than when I was younger. I've sort of learned my lesson at this point that the list will be obsolete in about a month anyway. So when I do it these days, it's much more casual and just an expression of what I feel in that moment.

Quote from: WilliamMunny on September 03, 2024, 07:37:22 AMRE: Rankings

I've noticed this come up a few times here, and as someone who LOVES to post/write/discuss rankings, I'd like to offer the following perspective.

For me, the idea of saying something along the lines, "these are my top-5 DT songs/albums" dates all the way back to my childhood.

I don't know about everyone else, but ranking, well, anything was pretty much a daily occurrence among me and my friends. There were many a lunch periods spent discussing the best NBA players (Jordan? Hakeem? Barkley?), NFL teams (lol, NOT the Browns), and especially bands.

For me, it was always about conversation generation, and ALWAYS came from a place of love and respect. I would never waste my lunch period discussing an artist I didn't love. I mean, who wants to rank all the Kid Rock records? (kidding, or course)

I spent most of my 20s managing a record store, and 'Top 5' conversations often aided in breaking up the monotony of a long shift. 'Desert Island' conversations were also an ongoing theme. Again, the point was to keep the conversation going.

Of course, it's completely fine to just say, "I love [insert band here]" and leave it at that, but if we have the next 10 hours to spend together, odds are we're eventually going to start 'ranking' those damn albums. Or not. And that's completely fine as well.

But, for anyone wondering about this "compulsion to rank things," that's my take on it. It's less about coming up with an objective concrete order, and more about finding some common ground for an ongoing conversation.

That's very similar to me as well.

And let's be clear: I more often than not go back to my rankings later and think "WTF???"  Sometimes even when Kev or Paul is revealing the list, I'm like "I had that THAT low?  What was I thinking?".  Hahaha. 

Jordan Rudess: 'We Did Fine Without Mike Portnoy, but He Came Back and You Can Feel It in the Music' | Ultimate Guitar (ultimate-guitar.com)

Quote"I'm really excited because welcoming Mike back is a really emotional, really beautiful thing to his home, where he really should be. He's been so wonderful and very respectful of all of us in terms of — he was gone for a long time. And he has all these skills beyond drumming. So he asks, 'Do you mind if I get involved with this? Is it okay if I get involved with this?' And we're always, like, 'Yeah, man, come on, bring it on. All the stuff that you do, all the Mike Portnoy stuff is important.' And I am so happy because, you know, when I listen back to the music that we've been creating, it's got his stamp on it. You know that some of the stuff is coming from his brain."

Quote from: Stadler on August 19, 2024, 06:29:31 AMWell, it's funny; there was some severe weather in the town I grew up in (my daughter even heard about it in London!!) so I went on Facebook this morning.  And I got distracted by a post about the Yes setlist... my God, some of these people are either stupid, can't read, or are purposefully obtuse.  One post: "Why is it so short?"  One or two down: "They're opening for Deep Purple."  Two or three down: "Why is it so short? They're lame!"  It's one thing to not know; I get it, you can't keep up with everything, but to then JUDGE when you don't know?  WTF?  And the interspersed posts about Deep Purple.  Literally half the posts seemingly don't know that Blackmore isn't in the band - he's been gone now for 31 years.  31 YEARS. Too many to count that talk about Jon Lord and Chris Squire in the present tense (Lord passed 12 years ago, Squire 9).

Not to completely sidetrack this thread, but I think this is a very common thing on social media. Not knowing what you're talking about is fine, but what makes social media unique is that people often intentionally say the dumbest shit possible because it gets the conversation going. For example, if you want to check that Richie Blackmore is still in Deep Purple, you could just Google it and find the objectively correct answer immediately. Or... You could act surprised that he's not in the band and start complaining about it on Facebook, which makes for a much livelier time. Social media incentivizes people to intentionally act like morons.

To make this more relevant, there was a comment in the DT subreddit the other day where some guy claimed that not a single Mike Mangini album has a "unique theme". This is despite the band at large clearly talking about the themes of each of their albums for the past decade. But it's easier to just complain as a first instinct than Google a couple of interviews, or even just read album titles, so...

I love the pictures that get posted:  "Gene Simmons with adoring fan!" and it's Cher, who is so famous she has one name, and whom Gene dated for a significant period of time in the late '70's.