the next clip he'll post is on Breaking All Illusions, as he mentioned already

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 07, 2024, 09:56:45 AMthe next clip he'll post is on Breaking All Illusions, as he mentioned already

Wanted to PM you but your box is full again

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 10, 2024, 09:30:41 AMWanted to PM you but your box is full again

oh dear me, does this issue ever subside?  , I'll take care of it mate.

guys have we talked about this yet.......Mike Mangini - Live in Beijing, China 23/08/2002 [Full version]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYpG-tzExRI

Yeah I've been watching this one whenever he posted it. Brilliant as ever innit.

I was one of the few fans who really couldn't have cared less about Portnoy coming back, because I knew regardless of who was on drums, their writing would continue to be generic, stale, formulaic, etc. Plus, despite only liking the first album with Mangini, I really didn't like their treatment of him, and the manner in which they fired him, after 13 years of hard work and dedication. So, Petrucci and Rudess are suddenly on good terms with Portnoy again, and they did LTE 3, and Petrucci had Portnoy play on his second solo album...okay? So what? Why does that mean he all of a sudden gets to rejoin the band? It's like your wife leaves you, for another younger, more popular guy (we all know the band he left them for, and then got told no), and then you re-marry, and then 13 years later your ex comes back around, and suddenly you just kick your wife to the curb — after 13 years of bonding and shared life experiences. It was just not right, and just on principle, I was not okay with Portnoy coming back. I felt this way, despite not caring for most of what they put out with Mangini, because I knew the albums being "DT by numbers" had nothing to do with him. In addition, to this day, I feel they never really utilized Mangini to his full potential, and it seemed a waste to kick him out, for an objectively more limited and less skilled drummer (and it's not just about chops; Mangini is far more diverse and well-rounded, stylistically). Notice I didn't say an inferior drummer — I get music is art and art is subjective. But, a more limited and less skilled drummer, to be sure. Mangini doesn't just recycle the same old basic rudimentary fills, over and over. With Portnoy, despite loving his groove, style and creativity...it's like the guy got to a certain level of proficiency, and said "Okay, I'm good, I'm done. I don't need to expand my playing or keep up with practice anymore." None of the other guys are like that, so in that sense, I feel Mangini was a better fit.

exactly (although I disagree about MP's groove and creativity, because there is none with him)

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2024, 08:07:01 AMI was one of the few fans who really couldn't have cared less about Portnoy coming back, because I knew regardless of who was on drums, their writing would continue to be generic, stale, formulaic, etc. Plus, despite only liking the first album with Mangini, I really didn't like their treatment of him, and the manner in which they fired him, after 13 years of hard work and dedication. So, Petrucci and Rudess are suddenly on good terms with Portnoy again, and they did LTE 3, and Petrucci had Portnoy play on his second solo album...okay? So what? Why does that mean he all of a sudden gets to rejoin the band? It's like your wife leaves you, for another younger, more popular guy (we all know the band he left them for, and then got told no), and then you re-marry, and then 13 years later your ex comes back around, and suddenly you just kick your wife to the curb — after 13 years of bonding and shared life experiences. It was just not right, and just on principle, I was not okay with Portnoy coming back. I felt this way, despite not caring for most of what they put out with Mangini, because I knew the albums being "DT by numbers" had nothing to do with him. In addition, to this day, I feel they never really utilized Mangini to his full potential, and it seemed a waste to kick him out, for an objectively more limited and less skilled drummer (and it's not just about chops; Mangini is far more diverse and well-rounded, stylistically). Notice I didn't say an inferior drummer — I get music is art and art is subjective. But, a more limited and less skilled drummer, to be sure. Mangini doesn't just recycle the same old basic rudimentary fills, over and over. With Portnoy, despite loving his groove, style and creativity...it's like the guy got to a certain level of proficiency, and said "Okay, I'm good, I'm done. I don't need to expand my playing or keep up with practice anymore." None of the other guys are like that, so in that sense, I feel Mangini was a better fit.

It's not YOUR principle. Not everyone has to live by your standard. It's their band - it's arguably still Portnoy's band, "in principle" - and they can do with it what they will. They are not the first, not the only, and certainly not the last to make a unilateral personnel change to get a founding/former member back in the fold.

Maybe Mangini can form a band with Blaze Baylor, Gary Cherone, Sammy Hagar, Tim Owens, the guy QR shitcanned to bring back Chris DeGarmo the first time, Trevor Rabin, Rick DuFay, Jimmy Crespo, Simon Wright, Tony Martin, Jon Brandt, Tony Kaye, Patrick Moraz, Tommy Bolin, Glenn Hughes, Frankie Toler, John Payne, Brian Howe, Bruce Kulick, Eric Singer... I mean, I could list easily 25 more legit artists that were replaced, unceremoniously or otherwise, by returning "original" or "classic" members.

Again, don't agree with all of what you wrote. It's one angle to be sure, but not necessarily closest to the truth.

Quote from: Stadler on October 11, 2024, 09:16:55 AMIt's not YOUR principle. Not everyone has to live by your standard. It's their band - it's arguably still Portnoy's band, "in principle" - and they can do with it what they will. They are not the first, not the only, and certainly not the last to make a unilateral personnel change to get a founding/former member back in the fold.

Maybe Mangini can form a band with Blaze Baylor, Gary Cherone, Sammy Hagar, Tim Owens, the guy QR shitcanned to bring back Chris DeGarmo the first time, Trevor Rabin, Rick DuFay, Jimmy Crespo, Simon Wright, Tony Martin, Jon Brandt, Tony Kaye, Patrick Moraz, Tommy Bolin, Glenn Hughes, Frankie Toler, John Payne, Brian Howe, Bruce Kulick, Eric Singer... I mean, I could list easily 25 more legit artists that were replaced, unceremoniously or otherwise, by returning "original" or "classic" members.

Again, don't agree with all of what you wrote. It's one angle to be sure, but not necessarily closest to the truth.

I'm old enough to know not everyone has to live by my principles or standards, bud. I can still have an opinion. I don't have to be a chef to voice my dislike of a meal. I don't have to be a film director to dislike a film, etc. Anyone can observe anything and have an opinion. I thought that's what we did here...share opinions. I see some folks are easily triggered around here.

I will always ask myself (and imagine) what he could have done on the album. I likely would have much preferred his parts.

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 11, 2024, 08:09:50 AMexactly (although I disagree about MP's groove and creativity, because there is none with him)

Agreed. There is no expertise or command of groove and it's not even a stylistic feature of DT.

What's more is now I am starting to doubt the creativity hype. We'll see. But I don't want to take away from Mangini's insane performance at that clinic or the beautiful drum work on View, which continues to be under appreciated because most people aren't conditioned to *listen* to drums.

nor do they know how his parts were constructed (as in how much thought went into them and it was a lot, even on D/T, although less so than on all the others) and executed (yes even musicians don't seem to know and care). They were absolutely musical. Not one note wasted.

Now a question we'll just be left speculating over is what if....what would we have gotten had they continued after View and gave Mike even more of a role in the songwriting process. They were going increasingly in that direction and they came out with a big beautiful masterpiece...and the pen stops like Mozart's requiem abruptly separating from the mind of a genius. The universe hath played another cruel trick on us. We'll just have to enjoy what we have today...and thankfully that includes all these LNF archives I never listened to.

It's funny how sometimes the thing people want more of (in this case fresh ideas for a band that's been around a LONG time) is right under their nose yet they don't notice it.

This is why I will always ask myself what he would have played and would have preferred this by any measure conceivable. Oh and to add: No precision in execution, no music (to me). MM era DT was though, obviously.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2024, 09:25:29 AMI'm old enough to know not everyone has to live by my principles or standards, bud. I can still have an opinion. I don't have to be a chef to voice my dislike of a meal. I don't have to be a film director to dislike a film, etc. Anyone can observe anything and have an opinion. I thought that's what we did here...share opinions. I see some folks are easily triggered around here.

No, not triggered.  Not even a little bit. I have my opinions, too, and it's why we're here innit? I just don't think all opinions are created equally.  Not everything can be dismissed with "it's my opinion". "I don't like this" is a different kind of opinion than "he's lazy and does not care" or "the rest of the band fucked over Mangini".  They're not the same thing. It's just frustrating when the opinions veer into... presupposing what someone thinks about their own life, their own career, their own choices. What they SHOULD have done, SHOULD have said, SHOULD have decided.  Frustrating, because I've been on the other side of that before (in a different context).

Peace.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 11, 2024, 09:33:33 AMWhat's more is now I am starting to doubt the creativity hype. We'll see. But I don't want to take away from Mangini's insane performance at that clinic or the beautiful drum work on View, which continues to be under appreciated because most people aren't conditioned to *listen* to drums.

Stop, please.  If you need to be "conditioned" to listen something, isn't that in and of itself a red flag for you?  Why do I need to be "conditioned" to listen to anything, drums or otherwise? 

Whatever happened to music being a visceral experience?  Whatever happened to listening to a piece of music and being transported to another place?  Getting goosebumps on your arm?   I listen to the instrumental piece of the "In The Cage" medley by Genesis on Three Sides Live to THIS DAY and I get a shiver it's so emotionally resonant to me.

I can sing every part of that passage for every instrument.  Can I play any of it?  I don't know, never tried.  Is it "hard"?  I don't have a fucking clue.  Is it "innovative"?  No idea.  "Creative"? Beats the fuck out of me.  I do know this; I listen, I get an unconcious visceral reaction. That's all that matters.

Look TO YOU these things matter, and as such I would fight to the death to protect them for you. But always remember, never forget, they matter to YOU.  It's not a matter of "education" or "conditioning" or "enlightenment" or anything else that would make them matter to someone else. Again, I don't want to disparage Mangini, he's a supreme talent (but if I must, I found his work in DT to often be intrusive and distracting.  I can recall listening to D/T the second or third time and finding myself counting the excessive bass drum hits.  Completely took me out of the mindset of enjoying the music).

Quote from: Stadler on October 11, 2024, 09:56:57 AMStop, please.  If you need to be "conditioned" to listen something, isn't that in and of itself a red flag for you?  Why do I need to be "conditioned" to listen to anything, drums or otherwise? 

Whatever happened to music being a visceral experience?  Whatever happened to listening to a piece of music and being transported to another place?  Getting goosebumps on your arm?   I listen to the instrumental piece of the "In The Cage" medley by Genesis on Three Sides Live to THIS DAY and I get a shiver it's so emotionally resonant to me.

I can sing every part of that passage for every instrument.  Can I play any of it?  I don't know, never tried.  Is it "hard"?  I don't have a fucking clue.  Is it "innovative"?  No idea.  "Creative"? Beats the fuck out of me.  I do know this; I listen, I get an unconcious visceral reaction. That's all that matters.

Look TO YOU these things matter, and as such I would fight to the death to protect them for you. But always remember, never forget, they matter to YOU.  It's not a matter of "education" or "conditioning" or "enlightenment" or anything else that would make them matter to someone else. Again, I don't want to disparage Mangini, he's a supreme talent (but if I must, I found his work in DT to often be intrusive and distracting.  I can recall listening to D/T the second or third time and finding myself counting the excessive bass drum hits.  Completely took me out of the mindset of enjoying the music).

Have you never been 'conditioned' or taught to read Shakespeare or watch cinematic art or look at a Renaissance painting? Music works the same way. Learning about something, being intellectually curious about it and wanting to understand it provides a different experience and a lot of people haven't had the opportunity to pursue that. Or maybe they don't care to because they have other things going on. Either is fine with me but im pointing out that people aren't just born to hear and understand everything.

Look I am all for visceral experience too. I think they work hand in hand and sometimes they can be exclusive.

I dunno dude.

I'm a drummer for almost 30 years. I always pay a lot of attention to drums.

MM still didn't do a ton for me.

Quote from: Adami on October 11, 2024, 10:06:13 AMI dunno dude.

I'm a drummer for almost 30 years. I always pay a lot of attention to drums.

MM still didn't do a ton for me.

Not everyone is going to like everything. I know people who have played guitar for 30y and think Petrucci just wanks aimlessly all the time. I'm not saying this is you but a lot of those players are happy just strumming James Taylor and that's their standard for what's good. There's a reason this music isn't played on the radio very often.

The reality is that Mike Mangini's greatest appeal is likely to be to drum nerds, which I am not I might add. The guy is posting content explaining every line of PBD, which is only going to appeal to so many people. People should just do what they like but my original point is that any of us can go throw on Beethoven but a casual listener is just going to experience it differently from someone who has been in the weeds of the music.

This isn't a foreign concept. We all know that friend, who likes pop and rap, we tried to play one of JPs solos (or a DT song) for who just looks at you like you have 4 noses.

I wouldn't term it "conditioning" but there is an amount of self-education required to branch out and FULLY appreciate things that are outside of the norm.  That Shakespeare reference was a great one.

If the only music (or literature, or film, or whatever other kind of art you want to discuss) I loved was the stuff I had a visceral reaction to, I wouldn't know or love a LARGE amount of of things that I currently do.  I don't want to de-value the visceral experience, because it is powerful, but to suggest that is the only or even the best way to come to love or appreciate anything is kind of wild.

I shouldn't have to turn my brain off to find stuff to like.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 11, 2024, 10:08:36 AMThis isn't a foreign concept. We all know that friend, who likes pop and rap, we tried to play one of JPs solos (or a DT song) for who just looks at you like you have 4 noses.

My wife 

She did buy tickets to the 40th anniversary show for us in Washington DC (my birthday is right near the day of the show).  Her words - "You can handle just about anything for 2 hours."

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 11, 2024, 10:05:15 AMHave you never been 'conditioned' or taught to read Shakespeare or watch cinematic art or look at a Renaissance painting? Music works the same way. Learning about something, being intellectually curious about it and wanting to understand it provides a different experience and a lot of people haven't had the opportunity to pursue that. Or maybe they don't care to because they have other things going on. Either is fine with me but im pointing out that people aren't just born to hear and understand everything.

Look I am all for visceral experience too. I think they work hand in hand and sometimes they can be exclusive.

I totally get that. My daughter is pursuing her masters in literature in London as we speak.  I get it. But appreciating or understanding isn't the same as "liking" or "valuing".  There's a fine line between musical knowledge and musical snobbery, and it just sounded - in the context of the discussion - like musical snobbery.  Like, "well you're Team Portnoy now, but if you were only more knowledgeable and had greater understanding, you'd be Team Mangini!".  I undersold myself a little bit; I don't play drums, but I do play guitar and I know enough to understand there are different levels of playing.  But while I can APPRECIATE the Steve Vai's and Joe Satriani's of the world, they do little for me.  Other than Van Halen, none of the guitar gods do much for me at all (I think Blackmore is a guitar god, but I get that he's not usually included in the pantheon of Van Halen, Hendrix, etc.).  I find McCartney to be light years more inspiring and "special" than Malmsteen.  It may or may not be factually true by I feel like if someone spent long enough, they could brute force themselves to being able to play arpeggios at the speed of Malmsteen, but there's not enough time in the cosmos to TEACH someone to come up with "Yesterday".

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 11, 2024, 10:20:24 AMI wouldn't term it "conditioning" but there is an amount of self-education required to branch out and FULLY appreciate things that are outside of the norm.  That Shakespeare reference was a great one.

If the only music (or literature, or film, or whatever other kind of art you want to discuss) I loved was the stuff I had a visceral reaction to, I wouldn't know or love a LARGE amount of of things that I currently do.  I don't want to de-value the visceral experience, because it is powerful, but to suggest that is the only or even the best way to come to love or appreciate anything is kind of wild.

I shouldn't have to turn my brain off to find stuff to like.

Well, don't swing it the other way TOO far.  I don't know if it's visceral until I listen to it. And I will listen to anything, whether it's the Sex Pistols or Animals As Leaders.  And it's not like NO virtuosos trigger that; Randy Rhoads does, Blackmore does, Peart does.  I'm not really saying one IS better than the other, I'm really saying one ISN'T better than the other.  I'm pushing back on the idea that - and if this wasn't the intent, my bad!! - that we'd ALL be revering Mike Mangini as the next Beethoven - or more directly, we'd all appreciate DT The Mangini Years and be bemoaning the return of Portnoy if we only had the proper understanding.  That's all.

Quote from: Stadler on October 11, 2024, 11:09:26 AMWell, don't swing it the other way TOO far.  I don't know if it's visceral until I listen to it. And I will listen to anything, whether it's the Sex Pistols or Animals As Leaders.  And it's not like NO virtuosos trigger that; Randy Rhoads does, Blackmore does, Peart does.  I'm not really saying one IS better than the other, I'm really saying one ISN'T better than the other.  I'm pushing back on the idea that - and if this wasn't the intent, my bad!! - that we'd ALL be revering Mike Mangini as the next Beethoven - or more directly, we'd all appreciate DT The Mangini Years and be bemoaning the return of Portnoy if we only had the proper understanding.  That's all.

I don't think ALL of us would revere ANYONE under ANY circumstances.  We're only human (more's the pity).

Hey everyone, I've been thinking a lot about Mike Mango lately and just wanted to throw some appreciation his way. Honestly, the guy doesn't get nearly enough credit for what he brought to Dream Theater. Sure, we all know his technical skills are off the charts, but when you really dive into his drumming, it's almost mind-blowing how precise and dynamic he is. Like, the dude can play anything. His ability to switch from complex polyrhythms to subtle, groove-heavy beats without breaking a sweat is something that I think goes underappreciated, especially in light of the new DT single and the return of Porntoy. What really stands out to me about Mango, though, isn't just his technical chops. It's his humility. In interviews and live, he always comes across as this super down-to-earth guy. No ego, no over-the-top presence, just a solid, hard-working musician who knows his craft. That humility shines through in his performances too—he's not trying to steal the spotlight with flashy solos every five minutes. He knows when to push the music forward and when to sit back and let the other guys have their moments. That's a rare quality in a drummer of his caliber. And, I have to say, Mango's brevity is refreshing too. He's never the guy making big, bold claims or going on long-winded tangents about his abilities. He just lets the music speak for itself. It's like he's fully aware of what he's capable of, but he doesn't need to shout it from the rooftops. That quiet confidence is something I really admire. As someone who's been a fan of Dream Theater for years, I get that it was tough when Porntoy left, and the transition wasn't easy for everyone. But Mango stepped into some massive shoes and proved time and again that he wasn't just a "replacement" drummer. He carved out his own identity within the band, bringing his own flavor to their sound while staying true to the essence of what makes DT so great. I know there are some people out there who were on the fence about him, myself included, but honestly, just take a deep dive into his work—whether it's A Dramatic Turn of Events, The Astonishing, or even the heavier stuff on Distance Over Time—Mango's drumming is tight, creative, and always serves the music in the best way possible. So yeah, shoutout to Mike Mango. The guy's an absolute beast behind the kit, and Dream Theater wouldn't be the same without his contributions. 

Amen to that! He's been around a while but he was teaching in the period before joining DT so he didn't have the same recognition as other guys. Being in DT really brought an awareness to a player who's always been seen as drummers drummer rather than a celebrity.

yeah although he had that kind of similar status when he worked with Steve Vai. (which btw is wonderful as well. John nicked from Fire Garden for This Dying Soul) You're right though, being in DT helped his profile even more as it were.

https://youtu.be/EsZQV3q4M_s?si=geC5rPBis0GE0rWc

Mangini covering Steve Vais here and now at a very young (sort of) age!

I wasn't around for 3 of his albums when they came out and am not a big fan of them, and I adore ADTOE, and find DT12 a fine album as well. MM is a huge part of DT history.

I appreciate the man for embracing everything and being a rock solid replacement for MP. Those were big shoes to fill. He is a true professional and you can tell he has a big heart, and it was tough to see him have to leave the band.

no, the other way round: Mangini's shoes are hard to fill. This applies to everyone who replaced him.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 12, 2024, 07:44:42 AMhttps://youtu.be/EsZQV3q4M_s?si=geC5rPBis0GE0rWc

Mangini covering Steve Vais here and now at a very young (sort of) age!

this was him preparing for a tour with Vai in 1993 (IIRC he played on the Sex And Religion tour already, before he worked on Fire Garden with him. I'm quite sure). Great piece (like most Vai pieces)

Amazing job on already great drum parts written by Terry Bozzio. Listening to Mangini, I've always heard a lot of Bozzio's style in his playing. Also interesting to notice that, years later, Mangini adopted a similar drum configuration, with the cymbals really high, in the D/T cycle.

Quote from: Jamesman42 on October 12, 2024, 07:46:03 AMI appreciate the man for embracing everything and being a rock solid replacement for MP. Those were big shoes to fill. He is a true professional and you can tell he has a big heart, and it was tough to see him have to leave the band.

Amen, brother!

Quote from: Stadler on October 11, 2024, 09:56:57 AMStop, please.  If you need to be "conditioned" to listen something, isn't that in and of itself a red flag for you?  Why do I need to be "conditioned" to listen to anything, drums or otherwise? 

Whatever happened to music being a visceral experience?

I don't see what advocating for a more superficial approach to music is supposed to accomplish.

Quote from: Kyo on October 12, 2024, 08:21:51 AMI don't see what advocating for a more superficial approach to music is supposed to accomplish.

And even then, a visceral and analytical reaction aren't mutually exclusive