Quote from: Jamesman42 on November 16, 2023, 06:12:30 PM

Quote from: TAC on November 16, 2023, 05:31:09 PM
James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.

I just watched it, holy shit that was better than the album version!

In what way?

Mangini is killing it in that song. So energetic. They crush every song on that DVD, I can't get enough of it.

Quote from: Dream Team on November 17, 2023, 05:04:38 PM
Mangini is killing it in that song. So energetic. They crush every song on that DVD, I can't get enough of it.

Yeah and some people say he has no feel. I can tell you when I say that live, I sure as hell felt it!

Black Clouds is their most underrated album in my opinion. It's listenable from front to back and contains one of the better ballads they've ever done.

Regarding The Shattered Fortress- the song plays MUCH better live as a sort of 12 Step Medley. Live it feels like an epic in it's own right and I remember that it got a HUGE crowd pop at the end when they played it on the Along for the Ride Tour 2014.

Quote from: TAC on November 16, 2023, 05:31:09 PM
James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.

A truly epic performance and DVD! 

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on November 19, 2023, 08:16:09 AM

Quote from: TAC on November 16, 2023, 05:31:09 PM
James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.

A truly epic performance and DVD! 

I found the whole DVD on youtube. That is a really good setlist. And On the Backs of Angels is on here and sounds incredible.

Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=&#2190508), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listed and he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).

This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.

What does everyone else think?

Quote from: JeopardousRaven on November 23, 2023, 08:01:43 PM
Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=&#2190508), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listedand he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).

This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.

What does everyone else think?

I think he was crazy when he posted that

Quote from: gzarruk on November 23, 2023, 08:17:01 PM

I think he was crazy when he posted that

Well at least we know he wasn't drunk

I think one could see The Count of Tuscany as a bit of a reverse Octavarium. The latter starts out really soft and mellow and takes about half the song before it gets into prog territory while TCoT starts out on the proggy side but then goes all soft and mellow in the 2nd half.

I don't see why so many people have a problem with Portnoy's statement back then. I always thought it had to do strictly with songs lengths. Octavarium and A Change of Seasons are both epic length songs, so are A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. Pull Me Under and A Rite of Passage are of similar lengths, as is The Glass Prison and The Shattered Fortress. Learning to Live and The Best of Times are pretty close too. A rough comparison of track lengths was my immediate interpretation of Portnoy's statement back then and I feel it was accurate enough.

Haha I remember that post all too well. Hype got through the roof after that (for me at least) and when the album arrived the expectations wasn't really calibrated 😅

I think BC&SL is great but def needed some extra polish and naming fan favorites like that wasn't a good idea imo. Sure it's an album filled with epics but the quality isn't consistent enough to match 8V, ACOS etc.

Also, remember the teaser? 😁 Sadly I can only find a split but it also added a lot of hype. Remember hearing the "turn the key" part pretty clearly from A Rite of Passage in the teaser and how awesome it sounded out of context. It is good in context as well but AROP was my biggest let down on the album. Really thought that was gonna be some cool epic stuff.

https://youtu.be/pnvy-WwtOcs?si=fhlsY4sAoTmcN_k_

I remember that teaser vividly, geeking out about it while hanging out with a girlfriend who was just not into it at all. Based on the teaser, I thought I would not like the Beautiful Agony section, but it turned out to be one of the most beautiful moments on the album.

I also realized, only years later, why my then girlfriend always seemed sad when she commented about how I had pictures of my meet and greet with Dream Theater in my wallet. I think it was because I had pictures of DT but not of her I was dense back then.

I don't remember when song length was released but the statement didn't have any obvious relation to that if I remember. For me it related to length, structure, sound, quality and all that at the time.

I do remember them releasing the length and sort of codenames. The Pumpkin King being TCOT. Hype for Pumpkin King was intense 😁

TBH I think the album has everything to be sort of close to what he said. It's just that the album is so inconsistent in quality.

Like 8V is a 10/10 from start to 24 minutes later. There's ofc discussions about disjointed structure and sure, maybe it's a 9/10 at some points. ACOS is a 10/10 but def has some 9/10 sections for me. That's still great and doesn't change how much I love it

Then take TCOT. The intro and everything from the slow section until the end is clearly 10/10 for me. But the main riff & chorus section is more like 7 or 8/10. Lyrics is a bit silly and quality just doesn't match the rest. Still great song.

Night to Remember. Starts great but later on there's a couple of 6/10 parts that just drags down the song overall.

That's my biggest disappointment with BC&SL. If the quality was consistent and they gave it some extra polish I really think it would be up there with the best.

Quote from: JeopardousRaven on November 23, 2023, 08:01:43 PM
Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=&#2190508), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listed and he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).

This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.

What does everyone else think?

I remember that statement. 

And let's face it, making a statement like that and then release the BCSL is absolutely hilarious.

Quote from: Pettor on November 23, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I don't remember when song length was released but the statement didn't have any obvious relation to that if I remember. For me it related to length, structure, sound, quality and all that at the time.

I do remember them releasing the length and sort of codenames. The Pumpkin King being TCOT. Hype for Pumpkin King was intense 😁

TBH I think the album has everything to be sort of close to what he said. It's just that the album is so inconsistent in quality.

Like 8V is a 10/10 from start to 24 minutes later. There's ofc discussions about disjointed structure and sure, maybe it's a 9/10 at some points. ACOS is a 10/10 but def has some 9/10 sections for me. That's still great and doesn't change how much I love it

Then take TCOT. The intro and everything from the slow section until the end is clearly 10/10 for me. But the main riff & chorus section is more like 7 or 8/10. Lyrics is a bit silly and quality just doesn't match the rest. Still great song.

Night to Remember. Starts great but later on there's a couple of 6/10 parts that just drags down the song overall.

That's my biggest disappointment with BC&SL. If the quality was consistent and they gave it some extra polish I really think it would be up there with the best.

ITPOE is The Pumpkin King, not TCOT.

Quote from: JeopardousRaven on November 23, 2023, 08:36:25 PM

Quote from: gzarruk on November 23, 2023, 08:17:01 PM

I think he was crazy when he posted that

Well at least we know he wasn't drunk

I also remember that statement and a lot of people being excited after it seemed like many people were not a fan of SC.

Quote from: Dedalus on November 24, 2023, 12:05:38 AM

Quote from: JeopardousRaven on November 23, 2023, 08:01:43 PM
Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=&#2190508), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listed and he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).

This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.

What does everyone else think?

I remember that statement. 

And let's face it, making a statement like that and then release the BCSL is absolutely hilarious.

To those that create the music, it's impossible to separate their excitement from reality, in any band.

Quote from: Rob24 on November 24, 2023, 03:37:42 AM

Quote from: Pettor on November 23, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I don't remember when song length was released but the statement didn't have any obvious relation to that if I remember. For me it related to length, structure, sound, quality and all that at the time.

I do remember them releasing the length and sort of codenames. The Pumpkin King being TCOT. Hype for Pumpkin King was intense 😁

TBH I think the album has everything to be sort of close to what he said. It's just that the album is so inconsistent in quality.

Like 8V is a 10/10 from start to 24 minutes later. There's ofc discussions about disjointed structure and sure, maybe it's a 9/10 at some points. ACOS is a 10/10 but def has some 9/10 sections for me. That's still great and doesn't change how much I love it

Then take TCOT. The intro and everything from the slow section until the end is clearly 10/10 for me. But the main riff & chorus section is more like 7 or 8/10. Lyrics is a bit silly and quality just doesn't match the rest. Still great song.

Night to Remember. Starts great but later on there's a couple of 6/10 parts that just drags down the song overall.

That's my biggest disappointment with BC&SL. If the quality was consistent and they gave it some extra polish I really think it would be up there with the best.

ITPOE is The Pumpkin King, not TCOT.

Ohhhh you're right. Weird part is that even knowing you are right my memories connect it to TCOT.

That statement IS hilarious in retrospect. I am super he was super pumped about the music and to be sure there is some good music on BCSL. But comparing it to the best songs you've ever written is just going to create unrealistic expectations. Also, I just don't hear the comparison between any of the songs he cited.

A Change of Seasons is the greatest epic ever written so to even be seen as comparable, they'd have to have written something 2x better.

I wouldn't call BC&SL my new favorite, but it is my favorite.

First off, I am very very late to not only DT, but metal in general.  An old friend sent me this album in 2010.  It was my introduction, so to speak, to prog metal.  I immediately fell in love with this album.  From the first needle drop on A Nightmare to Remember all the way through The Count of Tuscany (one of my fav songs and a killer album closer), I was mesmerized.

This was also the first time I heard James LaBrie.  The dude has some pipes!  I can't say he is my fav vocalist, but I enjoy his high notes.  Speaking of vocals, BC&SL was also the first album I actually liked hearing some harsh vocals.  THAT is a topic for another time.

BC&SL was also my gateway into other discoveries like LTE and Transatlantic.........and Winery Dogs.

Of the three albums that comprise the trough period BCSL is certainly my favorite.

BC&SL is my least favorite of the last three Portnoy '00s albums but I still have a soft spot for it always. It was just poorly paced. Two of the songs were absolutely awful!  where two of them were amazing, one was good and one was forgettable. Only two amazing songs on a DT album is an all-time count low.

The only DT album I rank lower than BC&SL is WDADU.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 12, 2024, 09:43:40 AMOf the three albums that comprise the trough period BCSL is certainly my favorite.

The trough period?

Quote from: Magic on October 12, 2024, 09:28:44 AMThis was also the first time I heard James LaBrie.  The dude has some pipes!  I can't say he is my fav vocalist, but I enjoy his high notes.  Speaking of vocals, BC&SL was also the first album I actually liked hearing some harsh vocals.  THAT is a topic for another time.

James is amazing on BC&SL, and by that, I mean he did what he was asked to do excellently. But this album is guilty of what many of their albums are...they have no idea how to utilize him. That said, the "tell them 'bout my brother" part at the end of TCOT is AMAZING!

James is much better on the Covers CD where he really shines. The Rainbow/Queen/Zebra covers crush. The vocal on To tame A land isn't nearly as strong, and I with they re-did them during the BC&SL sessions, as it was recorded previously.

Quote from: TAC on October 12, 2024, 05:51:59 PMThe trough period?


James is amazing on BC&SL, and by that, I mean he did what he was asked to do excellently. But this album is guilty of what many of their albums are...they have no idea how to utilize him. That said, the "tell them 'bout my brother" part at the end of TCOT is AMAZING!

James is much better on the Covers CD where he really shines. The Rainbow/Queen/Zebra covers crush. The vocal on To tame A land isn't nearly as strong, and I with they re-did them during the BC&SL sessions, as it was recorded previously.

I would say the period that includes 8VM through BCSL is the bottom if we're putting one off low points like FII or TA aside.

Quote from: TAC on October 12, 2024, 05:51:59 PMBut this album is guilty of what many of their albums are...they have no idea how to utilize him. That said, the "tell them 'bout my brother" part at the end of TCOT is AMAZING!

James is much better on the Covers CD where he really shines. The Rainbow/Queen/Zebra covers crush. The vocal on To tame A land isn't nearly as strong, and I with they re-did them during the BC&SL sessions, as it was recorded previously.

Indeed.

I always felt like BCSL was a very mild comeback from the mostly terrible Systematic Chaos. Which in turn was a complete "wheels falling off" moment after the brilliance of Octavarium.  That is the biggest drop off in quality between subsequent albums of any band I've ever listened to. 8V is my #1 and SC is my distant #15 (about to be 16)

But BCSL just feels so lifeless. I think the only truly passionate moment on the album is JPs solo on TBOT...and I honestly wish it was a better song overall.

I do like ANTR and TCOT, but everything in between in pretty forgettable.

Still better than SC though.

I'll say this, BCSL has aged well for me.  I still don't care for A Rite of Passage (though, the instrumental wankery section is pretty good), but the four big tracks are ones I still very much enjoy, and for a couple of them, moreso than I did in 2009.

Funny i've been playing this.

This came at a time in my fandom when the DT rot was setting in for me.  I had not liked Systematic Chaos (still don't) and i just didn't like the direction they were headed.  So needless to say at the time I loathed this album.

Today i find I'm kinder too it but it still isn't a fav.


Tracks i like

A Nightmare To Remember (although it is overlong)
Rite Of Passage
Bits of Count Of Tuscany (again overlong)

I could do without Wither and The Best of Times completly.

Decent album.

Quote from: bluefox4000Tracks i like

A Nightmare To Remember (although it is overlong)
Rite Of Passage
Bits of Count Of Tuscany (again overlong)

Regardless of which songs someone prefers, I find this fairly typical for this DT era: I often liked *bits* of songs. Since they tended to be quite long, there were also parts that I didn't like or that felt overly long or even out of place.

I cannot stress enough that while the Mangini albums were hardly perfect overall, I never felt that way about that material.

Quote from: Kyo on October 13, 2024, 12:24:02 PMRegardless of which songs someone prefers, I find this fairly typical for this DT era: I often liked *bits* of songs. Since they tended to be quite long, there were also parts that I didn't like or that felt overly long or even out of place.

I cannot stress enough that while the Mangini albums were hardly perfect overall, I never felt that way about that material.

here''s my unpopular (maybe?) opinion.  Longer songs were never DT's strong suit.  For being a prog metal band.....they're just not great at it.

and i love this band to death but yea.  it's one reason i kinda prefer the Mangini era.  the songs were......mostly tight with little fat.

I agree, but I love all the longer MM era pieces (that includes Illu and View, my two favourite long pieces by them)

I still love Wither, TSF, and TCOT is a top 10 song for DT.
Peaceful Sedation is a top modern DT moment as well. And ANTR is a big bloat, but if it was trimmed a bunch, it would be an awesome song.
TBOT has a great solo and I also like the intro more than I remember.
AROP is kinda fun but I rank it low and cuttable from the album.