Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 21, 2024, 09:15:51 AMIt's a fantastic album, if you like Disney soundtracks with occasional overdriven guitar thrown in.

Way too bloated; overly long. Too much filler. There was no need for it to be a double album. They could've condensed it down to just 12-14 of the best songs.

Lyrics are too silly and cringe for me to take seriously. But hey, at least they tried something different. I'll give them credit for that. It was the first time they broke out of the same old generic box since SDOIT. Due to the horrible reception it got, they've been scared to try anything new or experimental ever since. They literally went right back to formal with the next album, and have been the same ever since. New album will most likely be no different, especially if Night Terror is any indication...

Aside from being a little more positive about some of the songs on/aspects of The Astonishing, you and I have nearly the same opinion regarding the album.  When I think about it, I do very much appreciate that they tried something different.  Even if it was mostly a miss for me.  It could have really been great if it had been more concise and such.  Oh well, you can't win 'em all, right?

To be fair, I did enjoy it a bit more when it first came out than I do now.  Usually, DT's material (aside from the sure fire classics and best albums) has worked the other direction for me.  For example, it took me over 10 years of listening every once and a while to appreciate and enjoy BC&SL.

On one hand I would probably rank it as their weakest album but on the other hand I feel bad because I like what they were going for... in theory. I like them going for a concept album with shorter songs, however the song writing quality just wasn't good enough to make a 130 minute album live up to its run time.

The only time I have heard it in full was during the integral performance in Carre Amsterdam. Almost fell asleep to be honest. My gripe with it isn't even the length but just that.. it.. doesn't.. rock?

Kudos to the band for trying something new but this is not my vibe at all. I have heard appreciation can increase when also reading the (graphic?) novel so who knows, maybe one day.

I was relieved when they dropped Distance Over Time, to say the least.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 21, 2024, 09:15:51 AMIt's a fantastic album, if you like Disney soundtracks with occasional overdriven guitar thrown in.

I'm sorry to single this out, but I had emphasized this many times in this thread.  What's wrong with a metal band trying to incorporate Disney-like motifs in their music?  Like Disney soundtracks, when they are good, they are on.  Guys like Elton John and Phil Collins had some of their most iconic songs being on a Disney Soundtrack.

I love many Disney soundtracks. I'd kill to write a song half as good as some of those.

And I still don't like TA.

Quote from: Anguyen92 on October 21, 2024, 10:19:09 AMI'm sorry to single this out, but I had emphasized this many times in this thread.  What's wrong with a metal band trying to incorporate Disney-like motifs in their music?  Like Disney soundtracks, when they are good, they are on.  Guys like Elton John and Phil Collins had some of their most iconic songs being on a Disney Soundtrack.

Never said there's anything wrong with it. I said it's a fantastic album, if you like that sort of thing.

Quote from: Anguyen92 on October 21, 2024, 10:19:09 AMElton John

CAAAAAAN YOU FEEEL THE LOVE TONIGHT?

for The Astonishing?

No

Despite having two girls I've never watched a ton of Disney films. That being said, without reading this thread I never would have associated this album with a Disney production in any manner. Upon my initial listen I equated it to (a much lesser) Jesus Christ Superstar, which I am a huge fan of.

Quote from: Cool Chris on October 21, 2024, 10:52:55 AMDespite having two girls I've never watched a ton of Disney films.

How did you get away with that?

Quote from: Cool Chris on October 21, 2024, 10:52:55 AMDespite having two girls I've never watched a ton of Disney films. That being said, without reading this thread I never would have associated this album with a Disney production in any manner. Upon my initial listen I equated it to (a much lesser) Jesus Christ Superstar, which I am a huge fan of.

it certainly was inspired by that in some ways

First off, I have great respect for the sheer ambition and hard work behind the project, but they set the bar way too high and did no even come close. A concept album without MP was a risky move to begin with. It turns out you need him for that sort of thing.

It's a massive volume of music that requires time and patience, but at the end of the day it's an album. Not a Broadway Show, book or graphic novel. It had to work as such before anything else, but the pace did not work. There are many great moments in it, but it is tough to digest as a whole. Not to mention it was a cheese-factory. I tried my best to 'get' it, but it is still easily the album I have listened to the least.

Nonetheless, they totally should have taken the final risk and produce a live DVD/Bluray of that tour. It could have turned things around and help us 'get' the record more.

Quote from: joevaicci on October 21, 2024, 01:17:32 PMA concept album without MP was a risky move to begin with.

 

Quote from: Cool Chris on October 21, 2024, 10:52:55 AMDespite having two girls I've never watched a ton of Disney films. That being said, without reading this thread I never would have associated this album with a Disney production in any manner. Upon my initial listen I equated it to (a much lesser) Jesus Christ Superstar, which I am a huge fan of.

It has been said before, but along with Jesus Christ Superstar, there is also a lot of Les Misérables in The Astonishing.  For example, "Brother, Can You Hear Me?" is clearly based on "Do You Hear the People Sing?."

I feel bad for disliking it because it's clear this was a big ambitious project for them and they obviously put a lot of effort into it and that's worth applauding. But for me, this is still their weakest album and their only genuine miss.

There are some great songs on here like Gift of Music, Three Days, Moment of Betrayal and Our New World, and some good moments in between but it's just way too long and doesn't have enough great or diverse enough material to justify its length. It's all just a little too samey, I think great concept albums that do this kind of thing have a way of making each song sound distinct but like they all belong to the same whole (some examples off the top of my head: Ayreon's The Human Equation or Kamelot's Epica and The Black Halo albums). Other than those tracks I mentioned I could barely tell you the difference between a lot of the ballads on The Astonishing, it all blurs together.

Maybe one day I'll come around to it, who knows. I still think they should have released the live bluray/DVD though, as I've heard that it was pretty well done and might have helped with digesting the album. I think it's also a shame because it probably scared them off going for anything overly ambitious or different for a while. Maybe with MP back that'll change, we'll see.

Quote from: macneil on October 21, 2024, 04:14:27 PMThere are some great songs on here like Gift of Music, Three Days, Moment of Betrayal and Our New World, and some good moments in between but it's just way too long and doesn't have enough great or diverse enough material to justify its length. It's all just a little too samey,

I think the length and the interludey stuff can make it feel samey, but if you pick out your favorite 10-12 songs and make an abridged version, I think you'll find that there's quite a bit of variety on it.

Quote from: TAC on October 21, 2024, 04:17:27 PMI think the length and the interludey stuff can make it feel samey, but if you pick out your favorite 10-12 songs and make an abridged version, I think you'll find that there's quite a bit of variety on it.

Yeah, you're probably right, I've never tried abridging it myself. I think that supports the theory that if they kept it to one disc and really just focused on the cream of the crop material, it could have been a pretty strong album!

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 21, 2024, 12:59:11 PMHow did you get away with that?

When they say "Hey dad, can we watch this Disney movie?" I say "Of course, honey, let's turn it on..." and then I stare at the walls for the next 90 minutes, if I am able to keep my eyes open.

Quote from: joevaicci on October 21, 2024, 01:17:32 PMFirst off, I have great respect for the sheer ambition and hard work behind the project, but they set the bar way too high and did no even come close. A concept album without MP was a risky move to begin with. It turns out you need him for that sort of thing.

Even if I wasn't wanting lazy portnoy from systematic chaos and black clouds to come back to DT, I love mangini's work especially on the last 2 albums.
Even if there are many people who could have advised petrucci to avoid all the album's weaknesses and make it a master work.

Oh Man, you are just right !
Portnoy would have never left so many empty spaces or tolerated half assed prog sections.

I don't mean the album is not metal enough, I don't care.

I love dream theater for the prog music, and this album suffers from being sounding modern and shy, even with an intro that makes you think you are going to be hit by a truck like six degrees !

Digging into their roots from yes, rush, floyd, to metallica, pantera or whatever, they could have made a fabulous fantasy album.

Ayreon can do it several times and it looks effortless.

It's just not my cup of tea. It's not BAD music, but it's just not what I want to hear from Dream Theater.

Speaking more broadly about the album I think it was an unmitigated disaster for the band.

Quote from: Lax on October 22, 2024, 01:27:45 AMPortnoy would have never left so many empty spaces or tolerated half assed prog sections.

Ugh..

Two questions..
1. How would you explain 6 D's Disc 2? What's the difference between that and The Astonishing?
2. You did hear MP's output while he was not in DT right?

Quote from: Lax on October 22, 2024, 01:27:45 AMPortnoy would have never left so many empty spaces or tolerated half assed prog sections.

When my dad was teaching me how to play an instrument, one of the first things he said to me was "the notes you choose not to play are just as important as the ones you do". Then he had me listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Playing notes just for the sake of playing notes does not make good music. 

I love TA. If it's not my favorite DT album, it's just behind I&W. I like it because of its melodies, its pacing, and the grandness of its high points. There's a lot on that album that couldn't be accomplished without the empty space you're referring to. There's very little balls and chunk, which is one of the reasons I why I don't gravitate as much toward modern DT.

Every time I listen to it, I'm still just as Astonished as I was the first time. Truly a treasure of an album and highly underrated.

Quote from: TAC on October 21, 2024, 04:17:27 PMI think the length and the interludey stuff can make it feel samey, but if you pick out your favorite 10-12 songs and make an abridged version, I think you'll find that there's quite a bit of variety on it.

I agree; they could've just taken the best 12-14 songs or so, and had it be a single album. There was no need for it to be a double album; there's so much filler. On my Apple Music, I got rid of all the "nomac" tracks, which I always felt interrupted the flow quite a bit. Still, two discs was just too much. And, the lyrics, to me, are way too cheesy, and dumb as fuck.

When I say empty space I mean filler songs or abuse of ballads

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2024, 08:16:12 AMAnd, the lyrics, to me, are way too cheesy, and dumb as fuck.

I mean, it's not "..my will or my won't.."

Quote from: joevaicci on October 21, 2024, 01:17:32 PMA concept album without MP was a risky move to begin with. It turns out you need him for that sort of thing.

What are you talking about?

The only thing DT screwed up that tour was banning cellphones while having no plans to record a show. The show itself, stage and visuals, might have been the tightest production I've seen DT execute.

Quote from: Chino on October 22, 2024, 11:41:25 AMThe only thing DT screwed up that tour was banning cellphones while having no plans to record a show. The show itself, stage a visuals, might have been the tightest production I've seen DT execute.

Totally agree, I only caught one show on that tour - the visuals were so well done and everyone in the band sounded great.  Would have loved a bluray release, or even a soundboard recording to go back to relive it. 

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 22, 2024, 11:30:42 AMWhat are you talking about?

I am talking about his input as a co-producer and collaborator that the other guys have also mentioned a bunch of times. Even recently JR stated that they missed his 'director'-like' approach to music, songwriting and album structure. He could have steered JP and JR towards the right direction regarding which ideas to scrap, which ones to use and to what extent. He could have also helped a bit with the story and the whole world-building although admittedly the basic premise didn't allow for much.

In general, the record could have been a litte shorter and more dynamic. And maybe a little less lame at times. It is definetely just a hypothesis, but given what the other DT members have said repeatedly over the years about his contribution in the studio, I would call it an estimated one.

Dream Theater has made a lot of my favorite music, and if they take a swing and miss I'd much rather have them miss melodically like on TA than trying to sound like Opeth or some crap, or butt-rock alt-rock like Falling into Infinity. And are we seriously using Mike Portnoy as a gauge for lame lyrics?

Quote from: Dream Team on October 22, 2024, 01:15:40 PMDream Theater has made a lot of my favorite music, and if they take a swing and miss I'd much rather have them miss melodically like on TA than trying to sound like Opeth or some crap, or butt-rock alt-rock like Falling into Infinity. And are we seriously using Mike Portnoy as a gauge for lame lyrics?

Did you enjoy it when they channeled Queensrÿche for SFAM? Also FII's direction was hated by MP more than by anyone else. He had nothing to do with it. Anything one tries musically is hit or miss. And I wouldn't say TA suffered melodically, maybe just structurally.

Quote from: joevaicci on October 22, 2024, 01:33:00 PMDid you enjoy it when they channeled Queensrÿche for SFAM? Also FII's direction was hated by MP more than by anyone else. He had nothing to do with it. Anything one tries musically is hit or miss. And I wouldn't say TA suffered melodically, maybe just structurally.

I know I have said it before, but I feel Portnoy could have helped The Astonishing in the bigger picture.  To explain, I feel that the songwriting (musically) overall is really good; I am one of many here who has made a 1-disc version of the album which is just fantastic.  There are tons of good songs on it, and quite a few great ones.  The problem with the album is a) it is too long, and b) it gets way too samey as Disc 2 moves along.  Portnoy's involvement likely would have had him saying to cut some of the songs and/or to have a few more rocking tunes, to break things up and add a bit more variety.  I just think Petrucci and Rudess went too far down the rabbit hole with the more laid back melodic tunes and having too many songs like them, and there was no one willing to say, "hey, let's change this or that."  Long story short, that was a time where Portnoy's big yap could have come in handy.

TA is such an odd ball record in the grand scheme of the discography.

It's definitely the most polarizing album with DT fans, and here specifically.  That's the nicest thing I can say about it.

I think I'd sooner listen to Haken.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 24, 2024, 07:42:27 PMTA is such an odd ball record in the grand scheme of the discography.

It is, and sadly I feel like it will be all but ignored by the band going forward.  The band had already kind of abandoned it, with it not be featured in any of the sets on the last few tours with Mangini, likely because they knew that it was divisive with fans, and I doubt Portnoy will ever push much for them to play anything from it.  Maybe if they ever go back to doing rotating set lists, like on the yet-to-be-announced dates later in 2025, one or two songs from it will work their way in somehow.  I am not counting on it, but we can dream, right?