Well, to be fair, you've been running a transparent anti-MP campaign for almost as long

I'm pretty sure i haven't been talking about MP for longer than his return, and for the avoidance of doubt: I am pro MP, love his projects and the integral DT contributions over the years. There is no drummer whose music I listen to more in terms of body of work than Mike Portnoy. At one point he was my favorite but now he would still be top 5 for me.

So there is no anti-Mp campaign from me.

Lordy

I relistened to the album today because I haven't done so since I did my DT deep dive in early 2022.

Clear highlights are Sleeping Giant, Answering the Call, and Transcending Time. The title track has some great moments but feels a bit like an Illumination Theory retread, but Illumination Theory kinda sucks and View is much better.

The Alien and Invisible Monster feel very same-old still. Awaken the Master starts off well but doesn't grab me after that. So it's like, half a really great album.

What I miss is that it doesn't really have a defining "thing" the way older albums do. It's still a "Dream Theater" album, unremarkable outside of the quality of the songs, which is kind of an issue with everything from Systematic Chaos onward (except The Astonishing).

Quote from: skydivingninja on October 23, 2024, 10:58:10 AMWhat I miss is that it doesn't really have a defining "thing" the way older albums do. It's still a "Dream Theater" album, unremarkable outside of the quality of the songs, which is kind of an issue with everything from Systematic Chaos onward (except The Astonishing).

Spinned the album today afer a long time and I share your opinion. For me it lacks energy and punch mainly in the vocal melodies. Most of the choruses are extremely predictable and almost boring.

Quote from: skydivingninja on October 23, 2024, 04:30:09 AMAs someone who thinks View is very "DT by numbers," what changes did they make between the two that you were hoping for and enjoyed? IMO D/T is the best Mangini-era album, so View felt like a big step down. Not terrible, not great, just C-tier

Well...

Quote from: TAC on October 23, 2024, 05:08:36 AMHere's what I wanted after DoT. I wanted a thick technical show offy kind of album. And that's what I got, so I was thrilled.

It's like they took Pale Blue Dot and fashioned an album after it.

I thought the band needed to reestablish that part of their identity 

DoT, IMO, tries to be too many things at once. View is more of a statement.

This, kind of.  I loved the sound of DoT, and admired their focus on streamlining the songs and trimming away the fat.  But after they did that, I wanted some fat lol

Sleeping Giant, A View From The Top Of The World and Answering The Call were my three highlights.
The rest of the album is good, but those three tracks are great 

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 23, 2024, 01:05:55 PMWell...This, kind of.  I loved the sound of DoT, and admired their focus on streamlining the songs and trimming away the fat.  But after they did that, I wanted some fat lol

I don't get wanting an album like that but I appreciate the perspective!

I agree with Hef and Tac. My favorite DT is when A LOT of stuff is going on in a song, and hopefully good melodies as well.

I agree as well. D/T felt like a simpler, more streamlined album by Dream Theater standards. Probably a similar kind of mission statement to the self-titled, but with better execution and much better production. View is the first album of theirs to truly cover every single base for the band, including a little bit of flair and showmanship, since ATDOE.

DoT was a necessary response to TA, and it did what it needed to do. Untethered Angel has 8.6(!) million views Youtube for a reason. Part of it's because the video's good, but there's also an energy and urgency that authentically comes through the music.

I think View is, in one sense, a good album. The Alien is absolute fire. The rest of the songs are all at least good. But while I think it's better than BC&SL, it has the same feeling of "I'm not sure why this was made other than it was time to make another one." And I think the final lyrics of the title track kind of give this away. By implication, they suggest the band had already done everything these was to do.

Intangibles matter.

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 24, 2024, 08:33:56 AMDoT was a necessary response to TA, and it did what it needed to do. Untethered Angel has 8.6(!) million views Youtube for a reason. Part of it's because the video's good, but there's also an energy and urgency that authentically comes through the music.

I think View is, in one sense, a good album. The Alien is absolute fire. The rest of the songs are all at least good. But while I think it's better than BC&SL, it has the same feeling of "I'm not sure why this was made other than it was time to make another one." And I think the final lyrics of the title track kind of give this away. By implication, they suggest the band had already done everything these was to do.

Intangibles matter.

That opening UA riff is fiery.

Neat little interview from a Pearl thing a year ago. Interviewer asks MM the most memorable album he's played on.

MM chooses View due to 'my personal involvement in it' and 'being invested in it on the whole thing on a different level than the other ones.'

1:29 mark at https://youtu.be/6dBnk9nsUUE?si=3ef4tvhKqD0ojeo4

Quote from: Kyo on October 23, 2024, 03:22:10 AMAs someone who is obsessed with song structures, I gotta say this couldn't be more wrong. DT in the late Portnoy era were stuck in a rut when it comes to this - we were getting more and more 10+ minute songs which were all basically the same in their core structure - extended intro, verse/chorus x2, extended instrumental section (sometimes way out of place), back to the chorus. The shorter pieces were usually the same but with shorter intros and instrumental sections. Not a whole lot of deviation from that, really. Then you get to the self-titled album and suddenly there is a lot of variety in the way songs are shaped. Verses sound surprising, second verses sometimes totally deviate from the first, solo parts happen in unexpected places or develop in unusual ways, not every ending is as you would've expected earlier on. Distance Over Time kept the self-titled approach to some degree, so on both of those albums DT very clearly worked to get away from the usual stuff structure-wise, working with much tighter structures and surprising twists at much earlier points within a song. View was more traditional when it came to having big closing choruses, but quite creative when it came to having quite different verses. Both Sleeping Giant and Awaken the Master have extended instrumental sections, but keep these developing in more organic ways than just having everyone shred over the same riff, and the music before and after is also quite inventively structured. For example, how about that 2nd chorus of Sleeping Giant that's totally different from the other two? And the title track also defies expectations - instead of a big bombastic ending section we get a totally transformed, very odd and dramatic variation of the main theme. And again, the verses in the first section are completely different from each other despite leading into the same chorus.


Weird cop-out. The Astonishing is in fact vastly different from anything before or since because so many songs don't even follow the standard verse/chorus pattern at all. Many never return to a chorus at the end but instead take detours based entirely on the plot rather than musical considerations. For some songs you'd be hard-pressed to even identify a "chorus". I can totally see people not liking that, but complaining about it being the same as every other time is rather silly. It just isn't.


I'm tired of this as well and it's the only real blemish on View to have them revert to that pattern in a few places, but the way solo spots are handled is hardly the only aspect of the song structures.

Without wanting to be disrespectful to all the opinions expressed on DTF (but possibly being a bit like that anyway  ), congratulations Kyo, your analysis of the structures is one of the best posts I've read here.

Way above average.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 24, 2024, 06:01:43 PMThat opening UA riff is fiery.

I also like JR's Hammond. And I generally don't like JR's leads.

*snip*

Quote from: wasteland on October 25, 2024, 02:16:53 PMI'm writing while exiting the Milan venue. A show for the ages!

From the YouTube videos I was expecting to be traumatized by the vocals, but I was very pleasantly surprised to find James on top of his game. It maybe be wishful hearing, or the rust of two years off the stages being burned away, but he truly sounded great. They reworked melodies in the IAW pieces remain compelling, and he did nail the unmodified "sparrow falling" in PMU!

What I'm trying to say is that yes, James is not the singer he was thirty, or even twenty years ago, and on recorded videos his vocals may sound jarring. But if you give him a chance to surprise you, he just might. I know I was and I am truly grateful for that.

I think you meant to post this in a different thread.

I think this is the 'most satisfying' Dream Theater album for me to listen to. None of the songs are super notable standouts among their discography for me (except maybe Awaken the Master) and I would probably place the album around the middle of the pack if I were ranking all the albums, but it just feels so nice to listen to. The production is incredible and I think it may have the most complex drumming of any of their albums. Mangini was LOCKED IN here. The production of Labrie's voice is also way better here than on Distance Over Time; he sounded very 'auto-tuned' and artificial on that one. This album sounds much more like they just took his natural voice with minimal touch-ups.

I can definitely see this being one of those albums I'll use to test new speakers/headphones in the future.

I'm giving the title track and a few other songs another listen, not sure why but I was curious to relisten. 

The title track is actually clicking with me a lot more. MM is great on this album. I'm due to give the latter MM albums a proper listen with headphones.

I enjoy this album very much. Sonically they nailed it. Every song is above average with no urge to skip forward...until the title track. As epics go, this one sits near the bottom for me. Still enjoyable with some killer sections but as a whole it doesn't resonate with me like most of the other epics.

I think this is the best DT mix/production to date

Quote from: emtee on October 27, 2024, 07:23:25 AMI enjoy this album very much. Sonically they nailed it. Every song is above average with no urge to skip forward...until the title track. As epics go, this one sits near the bottom for me. Still enjoyable with some killer sections but as a whole it doesn't resonate with me like most of the other epics.

This. The title track is as generic and rehashed as can be. It's all stuff we've heard before. Remember back in the day, when there weren't that many epics, and they were more special? Now, there's so many of them, it's kind of lost its charm. For me, no epic will ever top A Change of Seasons, and Octavarium. The Count of Tuscany is okay musically, but the lyrics ruin it for me. Illumination Theory is the same as the title track on View for me; been there, done that.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 27, 2024, 10:30:26 AMThis. The title track is as generic and rehashed as can be. It's all stuff we've heard before. Remember back in the day, when there weren't that many epics, and they were more special? Now, there's so many of them, it's kind of lost its charm. For me, no epic will ever top A Change of Seasons, and Octavarium. The Count of Tuscany is okay musically, but the lyrics ruin it for me. Illumination Theory is the same as the title track on View for me; been there, done that.

lol IT doesn't sound at all like the title track on View. In any way.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 27, 2024, 10:43:15 AMlol IT doesn't sound at all like the title track on View. In any way.

That's not what he said.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 27, 2024, 10:30:26 AMThis. The title track is as generic and rehashed as can be. It's all stuff we've heard before.

Dude, just stop with your laughably superficial "analyses" of these songs. You don't like them, that's OK. Stop pretending like you have put any serious effort into understanding their substance. This is almost as silly as your "All of The Astonishing is basically just like Through Her Eyes".

For View, they created a multi-layered opening (the first 2:40) from variations derived entirely from the underlying rhythm pattern in 23. Then they twisted the pattern into a 4/4 version to create the first verse sections. Almost all of the first 4:30 of the song is all derived from that nucleus (except for the guitar melody leading into the verse, the backing of which is the basis for the later chorus). And so is a good chunk of the instrumental section from 7:24 (or really 7:11) on.

The mellow middle section is again based on the opening with the orchestral theme returning at 9:55 and (EDIT:) a harmonic variation of the guitar (chorus) theme at 10:36, 11:50 and 13:14.

And then the opening is also the basis for the entire ending section (the last two minutes from 18:18 on), which is a super-weird transformation of the orchestral theme from the intro into an abstract riff, still in 23 but almost unrecognizable, with note lengths changing quite absurdly and octaves switching or previously single notes being repeated to further disguise the underlying melody, which is one of the wackiest and most original things I've heard in prog metal in the last few decades. It's also a striking example of just how far they've taken the idea of developing all of the main pillars of the song from its opening.

All of that is actually quite unusual for DT as a songwriting approach for an epic, as otherwise they tend to just stick together unrelated sections in a rather linear manner, with merely some sort of reprise at the end to bookend things, instead of relying nearly as much on thematic development throughout a piece.

And speaking of reprises, "as generic and rehashed as can be" would've been to bring back the chorus from the first third at the end and then finish the whole piece on a big Petrucci solo. They deliberately did not do that, choosing to take the song into a totally different direction instead while still (you could say almost secretly) sticking to their original core idea even if it went over most people's heads. And they caught shit for it from fans who wanted them to end exactly with the tired old bombastic ending and who complained that what they got instead was anti-climactic.

Is everything about this piece original? Of course not. It uses largely familiar sounds, it has the dreaded guitar/keyboard trade-off section later, the vocals or the production don't bring anything innovative to the table. They do want the music to be recognizable as Dream Theater, after all. But your generalization that it is "as generic and rehashed as can be" just doesn't do the music justice. At all.

and including all the polys and the ritardando at the end. View is anything but generic (both the piece and the album) and it's one of my favourite three DT albums (and among their three best, never to be topped again)

Quote from: Kyo on October 27, 2024, 12:35:43 PMDude, just stop with your laughably superficial "analyses" of these songs. You don't like them, that's OK. Stop pretending like you have put any serious effort into understanding their substance. This is almost as silly as your "All of The Astonishing is basically just like Through Her Eyes".

For View, they created a multi-layered opening (the first 2:40) from variations derived entirely from the underlying rhythm pattern in 23. Then they twisted the pattern into a 4/4 version to create the first verse sections. The entire first 4:30 of the song is all derived from that nucleus (EDIT: even the guitar melody leading into the verse is a further development of the orchestral theme - and its backing is the basis for the later chorus). The same goes for a good chunk of the instrumental section from 7:24 (or really 7:11) on. And then, the mellow middle section is again based on one of the original variations with the opening theme returning at 9:55.

And then that opening is also the basis for the entire ending section (the last two minutes), which is a super-weird transformation of the orchestral theme from the intro into an abstract riff, still in 23 but almost unrecognizable, with note lengths changing quite absurdly and octaves switching or previously single notes being repeated to further disguise the underlying melody, which is one of the wackiest and most original things I've heard in prog metal in the last few decades. It's also a striking example of just how far they've taken the idea of developing all of the main pillars of the song from its opening.

All of that is actually quite unusual for DT as a songwriting approach for an epic, as otherwise they tend to just stick together unrelated sections in a rather linear manner, with merely some sort of reprise at the end to bookend things, instead of relying nearly as much on thematic development throughout a piece.

And speaking of reprises, "as generic and rehashed as can be" would've been to bring back the chorus from the first third at the end and then finish the whole piece on a big Petrucci solo. They deliberately did not do that, choosing to take the song into a totally different direction instead while still (you could say almost secretly) sticking to their original core idea even if it went over most people's heads. And they caught shit for it from fans who wanted them to end exactly with the tired old bombastic ending and who complained that what they got instead was anti-climactic.

Is everything about this piece original? Of course not. It uses largely familiar sounds, it has the dreaded guitar/keyboard trade-off section later, the vocals or the production don't bring anything innovative to the table. They do want the music to be recognizable as Dream Theater, after all. But your generalization that it is "as generic and rehashed as can be" just doesn't do the music justice. At all.

Nope; the title track is all their usual bag of tricks. You can write as many essays as you want trying to impress everyone here; don't give a shit. I won't "stop" voicing my opinion, just because you don't like it. Sorry you can't handle someone disliking something you like.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 27, 2024, 02:11:32 PMNope; the title track is all their usual bag of tricks. You can write as many essays as you want trying to impress everyone here; don't give a shit. I won't "stop" voicing my opinion, just because you don't like it. Sorry you can't handle someone disliking something you like.

I don't think he's telling you to stop voicing your opinion. I think the point was that if you go deeper into the song it starts to become obvious it's not like the ones that came before. In numerous ways.  Some music is worth taking the extra time to marinate with because only a couple times - especially with a 21 minute piece - is usually not going to catch all the subtleties that will fly over an audience's head (mine too).

View wasn't originally my favorite. That third section took me a couple tries but now I hear things in it I didn't before. It sounds like you have the extra time these days so why not give it another try before dismissing it in a way that sounds like you just haven't listened to it? Maybe you'll start to like it. Maybe you won't but you'll start to hear what he's describing.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 27, 2024, 02:21:54 PMI don't think he's telling you to stop voicing your opinion. I think the point was that if you go deeper into the song it starts to become obvious it's not like the ones that came before. In numerous ways.  Some music is worth taking the extra time to marinate with because only a couple times - especially with a 21 minute piece - is usually not going to catch all the subtleties that will fly over an audience's head (mine too).

View wasn't originally my favorite. That third section took me a couple tries but now I hear things in it I didn't before. It sounds like you have the extra time these days so why not give it a try before dismissing it? Maybe you'll start to like it. Maybe you won't but you'll start to hear what he's describing.

He's got an attitude, like he's the sheriff in town, and I don't put up with shit like that. I'm too old for that kind of juvenile nonsense. Plus, he's not the one recovering from brainstem decompression surgery, so he can fuck right off. Calling my opinions "laughably superficial analyses" is uncalled for, as I've never offered any in depth analysis of their song structures. All I've said is they've been repeating themselves album after album, with the trading solos, obligatory unison, and all that stuff. Some of us want to hear them break out of the box, and aren't content to be served the same old thing, album after album. Aside from that, I just said having so many epics makes them no longer special for me; they lose their impact, and that nothing will top A Change of Seasons for me. Didn't think that would trigger someone so much. Whatever.

Nothing will likely top ACOS for me either but I think it's cool that all the mega epics offer something unique.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 27, 2024, 02:40:07 PMNothing will likely top ACOS for me either but I think it's cool that all the mega epics offer something unique.

Well, I think it's great that you enjoy them. As far as Kyo's remark about me comparing Through Her Eyes to The Astonishing; he didn't at all get what I was saying with that comment. I wasn't saying that The Astonishing sounds just like Through Her Eyes, stylistically. I was saying that The Astonishing is their softest album; it's got a lot of ballads, that are soft, like Through Her Eyes. There's a difference. Both are soft, and that's undeniable.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on October 27, 2024, 02:40:07 PMNothing will likely top ACOS for me either but I think it's cool that all the mega epics offer something unique.

yeah I think that makes sense

Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 27, 2024, 02:23:16 PMHe's got an attitude, like he's the sheriff in town, and I don't put up with shit like that. I'm too old for that kind of juvenile nonsense. 

Whatever you think of Kyo's post, neither he nor it are juvenile.

Also, weird for someone coming in here with the amount of attitude you bring to dislike that in another poster.  And to be clear, I'm not telling you to tone it down, necessarily.  But if you can't take it....and all that.

I am also too old for that shit.

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 28, 2024, 12:25:39 PMWhatever you think of Kyo's post, neither he nor it are juvenile.

Also, weird for someone coming in here with the amount of attitude you bring to dislike that in another poster.  And to be clear, I'm not telling you to tone it down, necessarily.  But if you can't take it....and all that.

I am also too old for that shit.

It was absolutely out of line. There was no need for him to call my opinion laughably superficial, just because he disagrees. He also has no right to tell me to stop voicing my opinion, just because he disagrees. None of my posts are out of line, and I've broken no forum rules. You want to take his side, fine, but I'm not putting up with this snobby forum veteran attitude towards the new guy any longer.

If you don't like that, ban me for all I care. I've never been on a message board as full of snobs and bullshit as this one, all directed at me, just because I have a different opinion and don't blindly kiss the band's ass and praise everything they do.

Plenty of new guys here who don't take up half a page every third page on every other thread on a minor disagreement, plus a big apology post in the band subforum where it doesn't really belong. I don't mean to play forum police and I understand it may be crossing a line, but talk about main character syndrome.

When I feel bad, combative or reactive, I don't log onto DTF, I write in my journal. Oh and I agree with Uncle Rico, the View epic doesn't feel as essential as the previous ones, even though Kyo is also correct and it has plenty of new musical elements.