When so many of your favorite artists are using it, you would think it might encourage you to open your mind...

Quote from: Crier Tuck on December 05, 2024, 12:33:56 PMWell I've been a fan since the I&W days and always check in here but don't really post.

I was excited for Portnoy's return, and while Mangini is a great drummer, I just like listening to Portnoy better...maybe it's the production, or maybe just the dynamics in the sound from drum to drum or maybe that he doesn't sound as machine gun robotic, but whatever the reason, I'm glad he's back.

That being said, I think this chugga chugga chugga stuff with bland melodies just sounds boring and old and uninspired to me.

I like some of the instrumental stuff in ABM as it's actually, you know, creative and progressive, but it still feels so out of place with all the chugging. 

I don't know, I LOVE everything through 8V, but I didn't like SC and while I liked some of the stuff since then (for whatever reason, I like View best of all the post 8V albums), I just can't help feeling this band is a shell of itself and lacks any creativity anymore. 

So I'm hoping this album will be good and these will grow on me, but NT just doesn't do anything for me...the vocal melodies are nonexistent, the chorus is so typically recent DT ... kinda whiny and mopey sounding...you could have On the Backs of Angels, Alien, NT, whatever they all kind of sound the same. 

I was hoping for DT to get back to being a Prog-Metal band, but to me they just sound like Metal band with a bit of a Prog kick once in a while but not that much. 

Hoping for the best here, but so far, while I like ABM better than NT, neither song really speaks to me...

Welcome to the forums!

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on December 05, 2024, 01:42:48 PMDang, Steven Wilson is using AI too? A lot's changed since "iPods are ruining society!"

He even used it to write a song!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQHqxPvzOI8

Quote from: DoctorAction on December 05, 2024, 08:07:50 AMI think this is a great point, mate. I've recently had an "a-ha!" moment with death metal and it's all down to the way I listen to it and my expectations.

With DT, we know they're amazing and we all want them to do a career best 6DOIT/SFAM level wonder-box album that's just an eargasm in every way from listen one. (I've fallen into this trap before. I was down on View for ages.)

If we go in with an accepting ear, it'll be a much more pleasurable experience.

After reading your posts, I just listened to NT then ABM and really enjoyed the full 18 minutes. Basically ignored my own opinion about lyrical slant and let it be it's own thing.

I felt the instrumental side has a joyful, happy energy, you know, and the voc melodies are bolder than View too. Feeling v positive. Now going to ignore the singles until album release time.

Thanks for bringing this up, man.

That bolded part is important.  Let it be its own thing and try and keep pre-conceived judgement out of it.  It's hard but at times needs to be done.  No worries though mate, was just perplexed by my own words which made me reassess.  I haven't dived back into either song yet but glad it's a perspective people can get on board with. 

Quote from: Stadler on December 05, 2024, 12:37:01 PMNot calling you out; tis is about me, not you.  Can you point to a moment or a phrase in the song that is this?

The opening guitar sequence (first 40 seconds) is mostly flatted-fifth chords that create that off-balance/dissonant sound. 

A good example of the exchange between fifth and flatted-fifth chords is the opening to Strange Deja Vu.  Although I should probably defer to others with more musical expertise.

Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on December 05, 2024, 04:26:31 PMThe opening guitar sequence (first 40 seconds) is mostly flatted-fifth chords that create that off-balance/dissonant sound. 

A good example of the exchange between fifth and flatted-fifth chords is the opening to Strange Deja Vu.  Although I should probably defer to others with more musical expertise.

Is it a power chord with some variation on it? If so, can you give me a tab of what that chord looks like? Very curious.

RTK is correct. The guitar intro contains a bunch of flat 5 chords and intervals.

Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on December 05, 2024, 01:42:48 PMDang, Steven Wilson is using AI too? A lot's changed since "iPods are ruining society!"

Didn't you hear? He is married and happy now

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on December 05, 2024, 05:46:57 PMRTK is correct. The guitar intro contains a bunch of flat 5 chords and intervals.

Is it like the sample at the beginning of this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh_flat_five_chord

Quote from: Jamesman42 on December 05, 2024, 05:14:19 PMIs it a power chord with some variation on it? If so, can you give me a tab of what that chord looks like? Very curious.

Think of a power chord but move the higher note back a string and then add the root octave.  Most basic shape is like this;

Quote from: wolfking on December 05, 2024, 06:02:17 PMThink of a power chord but move the higher note back a string and then add the root octave.  Most basic shape is like this;

I thought power chords already used the root. In my mind, this flatted fifth is a power chord with the middle note moved down one a half step.

Quote from: Jamesman42 on December 05, 2024, 06:05:23 PMI thought power chords already used the root. In my mind, this flatted fifth is a power chord with the middle note moved down one a half step.

Yes, exactly.  With the link you posted of the Dominant 7th flat five chord, the power chord iteration is just a 1 and a flattened 5th, making the chord in the link needs to add the 3rd and the flattened 7th.   It's basically just a diminished chord also without the 3rd.

I haven't really paid attention to ABM but assume it's just the two note variation with a doubled root note.

Quote from: wolfking on December 05, 2024, 06:18:15 PMYes, exactly.  With the link you posted of the Dominant 7th flat five chord, the power chord iteration is just a 1 and a flattened 5th, making the chord in the link needs to add the 3rd and the flattened 7th.  It's basically just a diminished chord also without the 3rd.

I haven't really paid attention to ABM but assume it's just the two note variation with a doubled root note.

I worded that last post a little wrong, I thought it already used the root octave? Like, any power chord. But I could be wrong, I mainly play acoustic guitar chords, bass, and keys.

Quote from: Jamesman42 on December 05, 2024, 05:54:19 PMIs it like the sample at the beginning of this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh_flat_five_chord

In a sense yes though a power chord is just a root and a fifth. The harmony in the sample is a proper chord if you will.

Quote from: Jamesman42 on December 05, 2024, 06:23:11 PMI worded that last post a little wrong, I thought it already used the root octave? Like, any power chord. But I could be wrong, I mainly play acoustic guitar chords, bass, and keys.

The root of the chord?  In the pic above with the F and B, F would be the root of the chord and the B would be the flattened 5th.  The octave of the root is just the higher F.  Unless you mean something different in terms of the key of the song or something?

I think probably a better way to think of it would be an F dim sus.  You really only have 2 notes to go off so there's a few different things you could work around with it.  Because really with two notes played, it's not even a chord, it's just an interval of 1-b5.  The link above you posted of a dominant 7b5 chord has those two notes, but also adds the natural 3rd but also a flattened 7th.

But I think to answer your question, yes, the root in the first pic above is the F.

Quote from: TheBarstoolWarrior on December 05, 2024, 06:30:43 PMIn a sense yes though a power chord is just a root and a fifth. The harmony in the sample is a proper chord if you will.

Exactly, it's taking part of the interval 1-b5 which is used a lot in rock but creating a chord by adding as said that 3rd and b7.

It's also a tritone too the 1-b5.  Think Black Sabbath.

Quote from: Wukong on December 05, 2024, 09:13:47 AMI think people are just being extra critical about the art, because they like to criticize everything Dream Theater do.
If it wasn't Hugh Syme, and someone else instead, people wouldn't complain about it. Or if it was Hugh Syme but for a different band, people would say that it was great.

I am feeling like the episode of the Office where Michael asks the crew to open their eyes and tell them what color they thought "Prison Mike" was. Everyone agrees the last James LaBrie solo album, "A Beautiful Shade of Gray", had great artwork, but if you opened your eyes and said "but it was made by Hugh Syme", people would suddenly have an issue with it.

Nah, that isn't it for me. Hugh Syme has a lot of fantastic work under his belt. Much of his artwork for Rush is absolutely iconic, and I like some of his Dream Theater art too, even if I think its quality fell off in later releases. My issue with the art of Parasomnia would be the same whether it was by Syme or someone else.

So the tab I'm looking at it seems to switch back and forth between straight octaves and flattened 5th power chords yet as it descends there's a pedal point throughout the whole thing of the low E string, yet would be a D as the song seems to be tuned down a whole step.  That makes it even more interesting and that pedal point creates even more dissonance over most of the chords.  Yet, the pedal point is D, but the chords in the main riff are C#, Eb, F#, Ab, A and F I think.  WTF?!  Is that like a C# mixolydian with a flat 6th or something.  Who knows.  Don't think the collection of notes makes a real scale.

It's like the intro they have gone out of their way and purposely tried to create as much dissonance as possible.

Yeah, that D pedal tone really throws a wrench into things.

Quote from: wolfking on December 05, 2024, 07:00:54 PMSo the tab I'm looking at it seems to switch back and forth between straight octaves and flattened 5th power chords yet as it descends there's a pedal point throughout the whole thing of the low E string, yet would be a D as the song seems to be tuned down a whole step.  That makes it even more interesting and that pedal point creates even more dissonance over most of the chords.  Yet, the pedal point is D, but the chords in the main riff are C#, Eb, F#, Ab, A and F I think.  WTF?!  Is that like a C# mixolydian with a flat 6th or something.  Who knows.  Don't think the collection of notes makes a real scale.

It's like the intro they have gone out of their way and purposely tried to create as much dissonance as possible.

I primarily play and study jazz so take this for whatever it's worth, but I don't like this talk about real scales! JP does not get enough credit for the stuff that he does do constructing his riffs. I like that he's willing to think out of the box especially when you hop onto the forum and you see a bunch of people who don't bother to try and understand saying that he's doing the same old things or nothing new.

Quote from: wolfking on December 05, 2024, 06:40:13 PMThe root of the chord?  In the pic above with the F and B, F would be the root of the chord and the B would be the flattened 5th.  The octave of the root is just the higher F.  Unless you mean something different in terms of the key of the song or something?

Yes, I guess what I am trying to ask is, this flattened fifth is basically taking a normal power chord, say F C F and literally just flattening that fifth, in this example the C becomes a B. Is that basically it?

If so, that's such an easy chord. Interesting.

I don't know as much musical theory as you btw but this has been a nice exchange

Quote from: Jamesman42 on December 05, 2024, 07:32:00 PMYes, I guess what I am trying to ask is, this flattened fifth is basically taking a normal power chord, say F C F and literally just flattening that fifth, in this example the C becomes a B. Is that basically it?

If so, that's such an easy chord. Interesting.

I don't know as much musical theory as you btw but this has been a nice exchange

Yeah that's it mate.  Simple as.

Quote from: Skeever on December 05, 2024, 07:28:52 PMI primarily play and study jazz so take this for whatever it's worth, but I don't like this talk about real scales! JP does not get enough credit for the stuff that he does do constructing his riffs. I like that he's willing to think out of the box especially when you hop onto the forum and you see a bunch of people who don't bother to try and understand saying that he's doing the same old things or nothing new.

I like this.  I wish I could think more like that instead of always trying to see where a musical piece resolves too in terms of scales and keys etc.

I agree though, even though JP is a big name, for some of the things he does, he's underrated.

I listened to the new song in my car this morning, and even there, it sounded like crap. This whole thing is a disaster, from the lazy AI artwork and that ridiculous video to the atrocious mix. Honestly, people should be fired for this mess. I'm a huge metal fan, and I've loved DT for years, but I'm sick of them forcing this "heavy" sound. They need to drop this nonsense and go back to the Falling Into Infinity style, with a producer who isn't afraid to challenge them, like Kevin Shirley did on FII. It's frustrating to admit, but I have zero hope for this album. I'll just ignore it, like I did with The Astonishing.

After listening to it several times, here are my thoughts so far on "A Broken Man"...

—Whereas "Night Terror" sounds like it could be a leftover track from the Black Clouds sessions, "A Broken Man" sounds like it could be a leftover track from the View sessions. This isn't a bad thing.

—The whole intro, leading all the way up to the vocals, is cool, and evokes cosmic imagery for me (space and shit), even though it's not what it's about, lyrically. It just has that mysterious larger than life extraterrestrial vibe to it, at least, for me.

—Part starting at 2:52 reminds me of Tool.

—The chorus is really quite beautiful, yet haunting in a way. Really like it.

—The overall mix is...a little strange. The drum sound doesn't have that typical Portnoy vibe to it, and is kinda similar to the drum sound they were achieving with Mangini, especially on View. The vocals sound a little too processed for my liking. Guitars are a little muted, but I like being able to hear the bass clearly. Overall, it's not the way I would've mixed it, but it's certainly not bad.

—As much as I like Portnoy's drumming, minus the fact that he uses a lot of the same fills over and over, I can't help but miss Mangini on this one, and feel like this track in particular really could've benefited from Mangini's style, and much more diverse palette. Not a knock against Portnoy, as I like both drummers very much.

—Really like and enjoy the instrumental section, and I like that Jordan has been using more organ sounds. That said, I am growing weary of his lead patch. Petrucci's lead sound has evolved over the years, and I wish Jordan's would too. I do like that they stayed away from the trading solos and unison on this one, as that format has been done to death, however I'm sure other songs on the album will resort to it.

—As much as I love the bluesy section and Petrucci's solo on its own, and can tell he was channeling his inner Steve Morse (it's very Dixie Dregs-ish), it totally sticks out like a sore thumb. The transition both in and out of that section just doesn't flow or make sense, not to mention the jolly feel good upbeat vibe doesn't mesh well with the dark subject matter of the tune.

—Lyrically, this subject matter is starting to feel a bit old, since we have "The Enemy Inside", "Panic Attack", "War Inside My Head", etc.

I think overall, I prefer "Night Terror", but not by much. Neither track has really blown me away or been that memorable, however 40 years into their career, I think it's safe to assume they don't have another Six Degrees up their sleeves. I think the days of them releasing something totally different and experimental (stylistically, compositionally, sonically) are probably gone, especially since they got such a negative reaction with The Astonishing. So, from here on out, I'd assume most of what they release will play it pretty safe. Hopefully I'm wrong, as I know lots of fans are ready for them to shake things up a bit, but honestly at this point I'm just grateful they're still making music.

Quote from: YtseJammer666 on December 05, 2024, 08:20:43 PMI listened to the new song in my car this morning, and even there, it sounded like crap. This whole thing is a disaster, from the lazy AI artwork and that ridiculous video to the atrocious mix. Honestly, people should be fired for this mess. I'm a huge metal fan, and I've loved DT for years, but I'm sick of them forcing this "heavy" sound. They need to drop this nonsense and go back to the Falling Into Infinity style, with a producer who isn't afraid to challenge them, like Kevin Shirley did on FII. It's frustrating to admit, but I have zero hope for this album. I'll just ignore it, like I did with The Astonishing.

Fully agree on the producer comment...I think they totally need an outside coproducer...like Rush always did. 

Just need an objective ear to challenge them, to call bullshit or enough is enough on some of the stuff and just push them to try something different.

This sounds tired and stale to me... I like the changes and sections in the ABM instrumental, but they don't flow well at all and just sound so out of place with the tone of the song and the lyrics.  This isn't inspired like the ragtime in the middle of SFAM was...this is just slapping a bunch of stuff into a song just because.  It feels forced.

I don't know...maybe this will be a bit of a grower, but if the rest of the album sounds like these two singles, that'll be a disappointment to me.  I much preferred DT as a real prog metal band instead of a chugga chugga band that sound like they're trying too hard to be so metal and then sometimes throw in a bit of prog just to show they can.

Quote from: wolfking on December 05, 2024, 08:18:43 PMI wish I could think more like that instead of always trying to see where a musical piece resolves too in terms of scales and keys etc.

Listening to Impressionist and Dodecaphonic composers could help, Romantics too, I think.
Also, Allan Holdsworth is known for his non-functional harmony style.

Quote from: Nightmare Cinema on December 05, 2024, 09:08:03 PMI think the days of them releasing something totally different and experimental (stylistically, compositionally, sonically) are probably gone, especially since they got such a negative reaction with The Astonishing. So, from here on out, I'd assume most of what they release will play it pretty safe.

I listened to The Astonishing not much after it was released, if I recall correctly, and I loved it. To this day, the negative reception still saddens me.

Some days ago I listened to it in full after a long time, and it further proved its deserved spot as my favourite Dream Theater album.

Quote from: YtseJammer666 on December 05, 2024, 08:20:43 PMHonestly, people should be fired for this mess.

How absurd.

Quote from: YtseJammer666 on December 05, 2024, 08:20:43 PMI listened to the new song in my car this morning, and even there, it sounded like crap. This whole thing is a disaster, from the lazy AI artwork and that ridiculous video to the atrocious mix. Honestly, people should be fired for this mess. I'm a huge metal fan, and I've loved DT for years, but I'm sick of them forcing this "heavy" sound. They need to drop this nonsense and go back to the Falling Into Infinity style, with a producer who isn't afraid to challenge them, like Kevin Shirley did on FII. It's frustrating to admit, but I have zero hope for this album. I'll just ignore it, like I did with The Astonishing.

Have you, by any chance, tried listening to something you truly enjoy and find satisfying?

It seems life can slightly improve by seeking out things you like rather than things you dislike.

Quote from: Nightmare Cinema on December 05, 2024, 09:08:03 PMAfter listening to it several times, here are my thoughts so far on "A Broken Man"...

—The overall mix is...a little strange. The drum sound doesn't have that typical Portnoy vibe to it, and is kinda similar to the drum sound they were achieving with Mangini, especially on View. The vocals sound a little too processed for my liking. Guitars are a little muted, but I like being able to hear the bass clearly. Overall, it's not the way I would've mixed it, but it's certainly not bad.
...
—As much as I love the bluesy section and Petrucci's solo on its own, and can tell he was channeling his inner Steve Morse (it's very Dixie Dregs-ish), it totally sticks out like a sore thumb. The transition both in and out of that section just doesn't flow or make sense, not to mention the jolly feel good upbeat vibe doesn't mesh well with the dark subject matter of the tune.

I think overall, I prefer "Night Terror", but not by much. Neither track has really blown me away or been that memorable, however 40 years into their career, I think it's safe to assume they don't have another Six Degrees up their sleeves. I think the days of them releasing something totally different and experimental (stylistically, compositionally, sonically) are probably gone, especially since they got such a negative reaction with The Astonishing. So, from here on out, I'd assume most of what they release will play it pretty safe. Hopefully I'm wrong, as I know lots of fans are ready for them to shake things up a bit, but honestly at this point I'm just grateful they're still making music.

Great post, and very close to my own thoughts. The thing about the drum sound (leaving playing style aside) is what struck me initially. The sound of the drums is very close to A View, and I can only think that that was a deliberate decision.

I do think that James sounds quite fresh and energetic on this one, but I really wish they'd lay off the vocal effects and just keep it more natural. The backing vocals are good - I'm really glad to hear them return.

I've had to work harder to appreciate this one, than with NT. First impressions weren't great at all, but it took about 5 or 6 listens for some of the sections to click.

I reckon the vocal melodies are a step up from View, but again they don't hit you up the face on your first listen.

Still hopeful for the rest of the album, but I really hope that there's a lot more variety in the songs we haven't heard yet.

After a few listens...I listen back to AVFTTOTW album (and SFAM, SDOIT...) and my orgasms are way bigger...

Honestly, just the charleston cymbal during sleeping giant verses are enough to make me smile.

I hope the lack of surprises/risks will not get down this upcoming album...Lessons never learnt

Quote from: Wukong on December 05, 2024, 01:48:54 PMWhen so many of your favorite artists are using it, you would think it might encourage you to open your mind...

AI?
Pretty much every band has brickwall limited all records released during the last 30 years for no good reason whatsoever, causing music to sound tiring and bad. Bands and labels wouldn't recognize good sound if it bit them in the butt.

Every band known to man also uses pitch correction all over the vocals nowadays, completely draining the life out of what should sound emotional on some level. AI being forced into various art forms doesn't seem to add anything useful either IMO. Technology really is a double edged sword.

Quote from: YtseJammer666 on December 05, 2024, 08:20:43 PMThey need to drop this nonsense and go back to the Falling Into Infinity style

They've been needing to do that for almost 20 years imo

I'm not referring to any one poster, I may not even be referring to any poster HERE, but I'm just going to leave this out there:

I love to hear what people think and all, and it's an interesting exercise to see how certain art impacts certain people, but man, oh, man, there are a LOT of people that do NOT recognize that they don't know everything and that their opinions are like the spores of a dandelion floating in a stiff, summer breeze. If a song, a book, a movie, comes out from an established artist with a solid and consistent track record - and I think we can assume that 18 albums (counting the doubles twice) and 40 years of continuous touring would qualify as an "established artist" with a "consistent track record" - that doesn't move YOU, the problem is likely YOU, not the player(s), the drummer, the mix, the singer, the producer, the lack of a producer, the artist, the cover, the use of technology... I mean not ALWAYS, but most often, and even when there is an exception, only time will tell if it's a universal phenomenon.  Within three days of release?  Any of the criticisms are on the LISTENER until proven otherwise, IMO.  "YOU DON'T LIKE IT", not "THE BAND HAS FAILED"; there is a difference. One listener not liking The Beatles does not make them any less the most influential band in rock history.

Well said, Stads.

I suppose I should be crediting you everytime I say "it's a 'me' problem, not a 'them' problem," which is something I've adopted over the years as a means to sum up what you just posted.