There's no shame in...

[dualpalmpilots]

"Bruce overrated" is the hottest take I've ever read.

[SeRoX]

I know I'm in the minority on this. I also know that when I say this, most people raise their eyebrows or laugh. But yes, I believe Bruce Dickinson owes his fame mostly to his stage energy and how incredibly well his voice suits Iron Maiden's songs. There are vocalists out there who are far better than Bruce. Of course, all of this is based on my personal taste and opinions. I'm also aware that most people won't agree with these views. Anyway, we've strayed quite far from the main topic of this thread. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. lol

[Herrick]

Is there a musical reason for that?

For Metallica, I don't know. I always saw it as a gimmick after The Loads kinda like "Look we're back playing Metal in standard tuning just like the olden days!".

[Adami]

For Metallica, I don't know. I always saw it as a gimmick after The Loads kinda like "Look we're back playing Metal in standard tuning just like the olden days!".

That's honestly the best answer I could come up with also.

As if DM or Hardwired or 72 Seasons in Eb would have been bad.

[Stadler]

I know I'm in the minority on this. I also know that when I say this, most people raise their eyebrows or laugh. But yes, I believe Bruce Dickinson owes his fame mostly to his stage energy and how incredibly well his voice suits Iron Maiden's songs. There are vocalists out there who are far better than Bruce. Of course, all of this is based on my personal taste and opinions. I'm also aware that most people won't agree with these views. Anyway, we've strayed quite far from the main topic of this thread. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. lol

I don't agree with you, at all, but if it makes you feel better, if you substituted "Dio" in there I'd kind of know what you are talking about.

I mean, Dio is great, his work in Rainbow is amazing, the first two Sabbath albums are incredible, and the first solo album is legendary, but after a while it all sort of blended together for me, and shouting "We Rock Because We're Rock and Roll Angels In Rock And Roll Hell Rocking Over The Rock And Roll Rainbow" in a gravelly voice isn't really pushing the "singing" envelope per se.

[dualpalmpilots]

That's honestly the best answer I could come up with also.

As if DM or Hardwired or 72 Seasons in Eb would have been bad.

"You Must Burn!" sounded great in Eb live.

Anyway the Awake stuff would rule in Eb

[emtee]

It's a complicated question. I'm trying to think of other professions where any changes in responsibilities occur to accommodate aging vs performance expectations. I'm sure some exist but for the most part, all ages are expected to achieve the same results and have the same responsibilities.

But I guess it's only rock and roll so...

[hefdaddy42]

I've never cared for Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, or Dio.  But I also wouldn't negate their spots in the music hierarchy.  They just aren't for me.

And no, don't give me any suggestions to try to convert me.  

[Stadler]

I've never cared for Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, or Dio.  But I also wouldn't negate their spots in the music hierarchy.  They just aren't for me.

And no, don't give me any suggestions to try to convert me. 

Hey you should listen to...

[hefdaddy42]

Hey you should listen to...

[Misirlou]

Dickinson is decent live nowadays but you can definitely hear strain when he goes high.

Judas Priest's latest album (which was great) is in Eb, and they play live in Eb, including Painkiller, Breaking the Law, etc, and he sounds great, much better than if he were to play in standard.

Dio also downtuned live near the end of his career.

Almost all of Tool's entire catalogue is in Drop D, and nowadays they play The Pot in Drop C to help Maynard.

And LaBrie, as much as I love him, his voice isn't as in shape as the people I mentioned. Play Pull Me Under in D, I bet it would sound nice and heavy.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I know I'm in the minority on this. I also know that when I say this, most people raise their eyebrows or laugh. But yes, I believe Bruce Dickinson owes his fame mostly to his stage energy and how incredibly well his voice suits Iron Maiden's songs. There are vocalists out there who are far better than Bruce. Of course, all of this is based on my personal taste and opinions. I'm also aware that most people won't agree with these views. Anyway, we've strayed quite far from the main topic of this thread. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. lol

I also agree with Bruce being overrated. Greatest frontman in metal no doubt, but greatest vocalist he is not. Rob Halford was always better.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I mean I think there is clearly a hesitation in DT to start tuning things down for JLB - so much that they'd rather skip an entire verse or have Mike sing it than tune down and have their actual singer perform it (assuming this would even address live performance issues).

The only thing I can think of is that someone in the driver's seat - John or maybe Jordan - simply doesn't think it's worth it.

[gzarruk]

I mean I think there is clearly a hesitation in DT to start tuning things down for JLB - so much that they'd rather skip an entire verse or have Mike sing it than tune down and have their actual singer perform it (assuming this would even address live performance issues).

The only thing I can think of is that someone in the driver's seat - John or maybe Jordan - simply doesn't think it's worth it.

The weird thing is that they've done it on and off through the years and haven't really been consistent with anything in that regard, whether it's down tuning or altering vocal melodies, etc.

- In 2017, for the IW&B tour, they down tuned all of IAW + ACOS a half step. This happened for the whole tour*.

- In 2019, Distant Memories tour, they played PMU in the original key.

- In 2023, for DreamSonic, they started playing PMU in the original key, but then tuned it down a half step, again, for the last part of the tour.

- Enter 2024/2025 and they're back at doing all IAW songs in the original key and I bet it'll be the same with ACOS once that's played again in a few months.

*He still sounds really bad on the Budokan show they released from that tour, though.

It seems as if they don't stick with something long enough to actually let it work and polish it as they go, instead they just wing it and hope for the best.

[SeRoX]

It's possible DT might be thinking this: No matter how James sings, he'll always be criticized anyway. At least let's play in the original key so that the original identity of the songs isn't ruined. If they really do have such a thought, I have to say it's quite a bad one. Because the vocalist's performance is always at the forefront when it comes to criticism. The band needs to arrange things according to James.

[gzarruk]

.

[Setlist Scotty]

I also agree with Bruce being overrated. Greatest frontman in metal no doubt, but greatest vocalist he is not. Rob Halford was always better.

Granted I haven't watched many recent audience videos of either of them lately, but from the ones I recall seeing, Bruce manages to stay much more in tune than Rob. Maybe it was the songs or maybe it just happened to be those specific performances, but I cringed when I heard Rob and felt bad for how far he had fallen - I never thought that about the clips of Bruce I saw.

[bosk1]

Well, no matter our opinions on things, we don't need to use the thread as an opportunity to bash any singer, whether it be Bruce, Rob, or especially James.  The thread topic is fine, but let's make sure the discussion does not cross the line.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It's possible DT might be thinking this: No matter how James sings, he'll always be criticized anyway. At least let's play in the original key so that the original identity of the songs isn't ruined. If they really do have such a thought, I have to say it's quite a bad one. Because the vocalist's performance is always at the forefront when it comes to criticism. The band needs to arrange things according to James.

I feel like the way this band has been organized and run for 40 years is the furthest from arranging things according to the needs of the singer.

[ZirconBlue]

It always seemed to me that tuning down a half step wouldn't help a whole lot.  If you can't hit the high F#, then the high F isn't going to be much better.  But, I'm not a professional singer, so what do I know?  

[TheCountOfNYC]

It always seemed to me that tuning down a half step wouldn't help a whole lot.  If you can't hit the high F#, then the high F isn't going to be much better.  But, I'm not a professional singer, so what do I know? 

Sometimes it's not about your range getting lower, it's about your tessitura (the word for what notes you sing most comfortably) changing. I find I sing in Db, Eb, and F most comfortably. Even though pretty much every Metallica song is well in my range, I feel much more comfortable singing them when they're in Eb instead of E because my voice sits better in that key.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Also let's be honest, if this were an easy fix - assuming they even think there is an issue - it would have been addressed already. This whole topic has been a 30 year ongoing discussion yet they apparently still haven't done what's required to help James. I think that's becuse there isn't an easy answer (like just broadly downtuning).

[gzarruk]

Also let's be honest, if this were an easy fix - assuming they even think there is an issue - it would have been addressed already. This whole topic has been a 30 year ongoing discussion yet they apparently still haven't done what's required to help James. I think that's becuse there isn't an easy answer (like just broadly downtuning).

The fastest fix would be to just retire some songs for good from live shows moving forward, but they'd be retiring a lot of their "classics" and fan favorites. Not an easy choice.

[Setlist Scotty]

I feel like the way this band has been organized and run for 40 years is the furthest from arranging things according to the needs of the singer.

I disagree. Can't comment on the vocal melodies that the band comes up with in general, but I am confident that in some cases this was most certainly not the case.

Live, as has already been pointed out, the band downtuned the whole IaW set (aside from WFS) and ACoS on the 2017 tour. They only did that for the sake of JL. Likewise, them performing abridged versions of both TtT and Voices was also for JL's benefit.

In the studio, I only know of one instance, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others. The one I know about - and can be heard on the Making of FII CD - is them changing the key of YNM. Originally it was in a higher key, but it was too difficult for JL, so it was lowered. You can hear part of it here:
https://youtu.be/3cEdj1zlyYk?list=OLAK5uy_lwuTo3gUEh04RVpPGjICDMTElrG3Ryrd0&t=59