(SPOILERS) DT Live in Luna Park review

[obelix5150]

New member here! Just wanted to briefly chime in with my thoughts, having received the DVD last night.

I didn't find Jordan to be as buried as some of you guys indicated.. but this was on good stereo headphones, where I could clearly hear Jordan panned towards the left channel. JP was certainly a bit too loud, with his very middy sound occupying the majority of the sonic space. Overall I would've appreciated more crowd noise in the mix, and a generally less clinical approach to the mix, but it definitely worked just fine. Mangini's drums sound tight as hell. I just wish JM was louder! LaBrie pitch-wise is on point, but his voice does have more of that rasp and snarl that I personally find a bit irritating. Didn't hurt my enjoyment of the concert though.

The video side of things I found excellent. I really appreciated some of the other camera shots, like the overhead views of Jordan and MM. Generally it looks very hi-def and professional, and the camera perfectly cuts to every member when he's doing something cool (except JM's brief bass break in On The Backs of Angels lol).

The performances overall were stellar. Bridges in the Sky was a terrific opener. 6:00 was cool but LaBrie was struggling a bit on that one. Their performance of Dark Eternal Night was the best I've ever heard from them. I won't walk through all the songs, but I remember specific highlights being Bridges, Dark Eternal, the drum solo, the acoustic set, Outcry, the piano solo, Surrounded, and Breaking All Illusions.

Also, is anybody going to be at the Cleveland (Solon) theater showing tonight? Sincerely hope I'm not the only one in the theater lol!

[BlobVanDam]

Welcome to the forum! I haven't got the DVD yet, but from the Youtube clips they released (which I assume are taken from the stereo track), I agree with you on the mix. I can hear JR just fine on my headphones.

And I actually thought they were already done with the theater screenings.

[Prog Snob]

Welcome to the forum! I haven't got the DVD yet, but from the Youtube clips they released (which I assume are taken from the stereo track), I agree with you on the mix. I can hear JR just fine on my headphones.

And I actually thought they were already done with the theater screenings.

There is one, tonight, not too far from me.  I was seriously considering going again.

[TAC]

Welcome to the forum!

I just got the DVD yesterday and watched it a couple of times. I also thought Jordan was a little low in the mix and JP was high. Seemed MM's toms were hard to hear as well.

[BlobVanDam]

Welcome to the forum! I haven't got the DVD yet, but from the Youtube clips they released (which I assume are taken from the stereo track), I agree with you on the mix. I can hear JR just fine on my headphones.

And I actually thought they were already done with the theater screenings.

There is one, tonight, not too far from me.  I was seriously considering going again.

Looks like several places are screening it tonight. The more you know!
Hopefully they get a better turnout than the first round of screenings, although they might get even less now that you can just buy it. Australia only got the 2 September screenings, so no other chances for me.

[obelix5150]

Thanks for the welcome! It's entirely possible that the 5.1 mix doesn't do JR as much justice as the stereo mix, I haven't had a chance to check that out yet. Honestly tonight is a terrible night for me to attend the screening (50 minute drive to and from the theater, and I have a paper due tomorrow morning) but I'm doing it out of commitment to my favorite band lol!

[The Stray Seed]

6:00 was cool but LaBrie was struggling a bit on that one.

Struggling?? You gotta be kidding! He even did additional screams! He nailed it! =D Btw, welcome man!

[obelix5150]

6:00 was cool but LaBrie was struggling a bit on that one.

Struggling?? You gotta be kidding! He even did additional screams! He nailed it! =D Btw, welcome man!

Haha, yes, he did do additional screams. But it didn't sound as fluid as it did on the record - which is to be expected. Don't get me wrong, LaBrie was way way way better than I expected him to be throughout this DVD... and thanks!

By the way did anyone notice even more weird breathy noise on the vocals during quiet sections? LaBrie always has a more breathy tone when he does quiet emotional stuff but I found it to be so prominent that it was a bit distracting..

[KevShmev]

To touch on the keyboards being low in the mix again, to me, the most glaring example of this is the main theme in Breaking All Illusions, the one that kicks in around :50.  The keyboard melody, which is basically the same as the eventual chorus, is barely audible, and the guitar being so overpowering there takes away from the majestic feel of that theme. 

[bosk1]

Now the other thing is that it kind of worries me if the keys were loud enough on 6:00, but not quite enough on the others, because that means it might be that way in the final mix, even without the theater sound. If in the theaters they were low in 6:00 too, that would more imply it was entirely just the theater's sound that made it that way since the youtube video sounds perfect.

Couldn't it just be the type of speakers and the acoustics in a general cinema room? Because when I play the new DT album on the system in my living room, the vocals are really quiet, but when I play it with headphones or in my room, they're louder.

Is it possible the keyboards on LALP are mixed in such a way that certain stereo or surround sound systems might make them sound drowned out?

Let me offer my two cents.  After seeing and listening to the whole thing, yes, I agree that the keys are buried in some places.  And it is a bit odd because they are much higher in other places.  It's hard to say exactly why that happened the way it did, and even if we talked to everyone involved in the process, I'm not so sure it would be an easy answer.  If you listen to a bunch of live releases, there are a lot with terrific mixes, a lot with bad mixes, and a lot with in-between mixes.  And there is a lot of disagreement between peole even over which category any given release fits into.  Bottom line is, I think:  There are a LOT of factors present in a live release that are not as present in something recorded in studio, and it is a LOT harder to get a perfect sounding mix on a live release (unless you go back into the studio and do a LOT of re-recording, which a lot of live releases in the '80s and '90s did). 

That said, there are a couple of factors I am going to guess came into play here on the keyboard issue:
1.  Jordan himself constantly tweaks his own volume level during a show.  He mentioned it in a commentary or documentary (I forget which one now), and you can see him doing it constantly.  So if there are times when the keyboards are quiet, at least some of those times are because Jordan himself has killed his own volume.
2.  Whatever the levels were, JP may have been intentionally trying to preserve a lot of the natural less-than-perfect sound and feel of the actual live show, and may have gone with less than ideal mixes in places because he felt it was a more natural representation of the performance rather than opting to try to make it sound more perfect.  That's an artistic decision that, whether I agree with it or not, I can certainly respect.

Again, there are no doubt a lot of other factors that come into play was well.  But those are a couple that crossed my mind that people may not be considering.

[bosk1]

A few responses to comments about individual songs:

- The Dark Eternal Night: This was great, easily the best live recording of the song. The instrumental part was especially well executed.

SO much fun!  I loved this song on LALP.  Even though they have to make so many changes to the song in a live setting because the song is SO heavy on effects in the studio, it still tranlates really well to a live setting.

- This is the Life: I think this song didn't work great in the live setting, JLB was amazing on this one though.

Actually, I thought the entire band was amazing on this song. 

- The Root of all Evil: Good, but I think it was more energetic on Score.

It definitely had a different feel on Score, probably at least in part because it was the show opener, so it would definitely have a different vibe when places in the middle of the set.  But I think it was plenty energetic.  And I loved the alternate ending.

/quote]

Yeah, it's my second least favorite track on I&W.  If it was up to me, I would never want to see it included in a set list.  That being said, I was blown away by the performance on LALP.  It has caused me to completely reevalute how I feel about the song after all these years.  Terrific performance.  The band was SO into it that I found myself involuntarily smiling throughout the entire thing.  The interaction between James and JP was really fun.  The only slight knock I have is:  James note choice on the vamping in the second chorus on the line "His shadow slowly fading from the wall" is a terrific moment in the song, and I didn't like his alternative note choice as much on LALP.  But that's a small nitpick.  If it wasn't for the fact that it is probably my favorite moment in the original version of the song, I probably wouldn't have even given it a second thought.

All in all, it's really hard for me to pick out a single sond that I didn't like on this release.

[Ytsejammin]

After having sat through it a couple of times , in stereo and 5.1 , I'm disappointed that JR is so under-mixed. Was this a Richard Chyki thing? A mastering thing? Other than that I'm really enjoying it.

[bosk1]

The stereo mix is better than the 5.1.  But as far as Jordan specifically, see my post above where I just discussed pretty much the same thing you are asking:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39097.msg1712290#msg1712290

[TAC]

I thought TDEN was incredible live. One of the highlights of the show. I've always been slightly surprised JP put it in the set on this tour. Not sure why. Oddly, I listened to the LALP version last night, then went right to the CiM version, and it was equally as strong.

James didn't go to "the WALL" the entire tour, from what I can tell, but he hit just about everything else in the song. He was great on the summer leg and it shows on this release. James has the ability to dial it in when he has to.

[slycordinator]

Also, on the mix WRT Jordan, it's entirely possible that they continued tweaking with the mix after the initial movie screenings before putting it on blu-ray/dvd/cd. It's pretty common. Heck, it used to be common for a movie to be released and then get changed while it was released, like George Lucas considers the mono mix of Star Wars to be the "official" one over the earlier 6-track and stereo mixes; they'd been tweaking things the whole time with each subsequent type of print on the initial release.

[Ravenfoul]

A few responses to comments about individual songs:

- The Dark Eternal Night: This was great, easily the best live recording of the song. The instrumental part was especially well executed.

SO much fun!  I loved this song on LALP.  Even though they have to make so many changes to the song in a live setting because the song is SO heavy on effects in the studio, it still tranlates really well to a live setting.

- This is the Life: I think this song didn't work great in the live setting, JLB was amazing on this one though.

Actually, I thought the entire band was amazing on this song. 

I actually don't like This is the Life, on the studio album, but the LALP version was really good.

[BlobVanDam]

2.  Whatever the levels were, JP may have been intentionally trying to preserve a lot of the natural less-than-perfect sound and feel of the actual live show, and may have gone with less than ideal mixes in places because he felt it was a more natural representation of the performance rather than opting to try to make it sound more perfect.  That's an artistic decision that, whether I agree with it or not, I can certainly respect.

First I'd like to disclaimer by stating that from what I've heard so far, I have absolutely no problems with the keyboard mix on my audio equipment when others did, and don't expect I will once I get the DVD either, but to suggest that it may have been intentionally mixed roughly to somehow sound more live is a huge cop-out justification imo, and being intentional does not change the end result.

I think it comes down to audio equipment. What sounds good on one setup may not sound the same on a different setup. I suspect that with a more bassy setup, the guitars may overwhelm the rest of the mix more, but on my studio monitor headphones, everything sits in the mix right about where I'd expect them to.


edit: My copy literally just arrived while I was typing this post, so now I can listen to it properly!

[King Postwhore]

bosk1 has power we can't even understand blob.  Watch yourself.

[BlobVanDam]

bosk1 has power we can't even understand blob.  Watch yourself.

Are you suggesting that bosk1 graciously gave me my copy of LALP at just the right moment? THANKS BOSKY!

Still watching it, and enjoying it! I've noticed some of the little criticisms others have mentioned, but luckily still have absolutely zero problems with the keyboard mix. It's perfect at least 95% of the time.
That breathy vocal distortion hasn't popped up much, but when it does, it's annoying. Pretty minor problem in the grand scheme though. JLB is sounding fantastic.

[bosk1]

...but to suggest that it may have been intentionally mixed roughly to somehow sound more live is a huge cop-out justification imo, and being intentional does not change the end result.

  How is it a cop-out if they were going for a certain result and managed to achieve exactly what they were going for?  I don't follow you.

And, again, I'm not saying they necessarily were going for a particular result.  But it is possible.

[BlobVanDam]

...but to suggest that it may have been intentionally mixed roughly to somehow sound more live is a huge cop-out justification imo, and being intentional does not change the end result.

  How is it a cop-out if they were going for a certain result and managed to achieve exactly what they were going for?  I don't follow you.

Because there's no evidence that is what they were going for, so it's coming up with an excuse.

But before you jump on me for that bosky, let me very clearly state that it's a total moot point to me, because there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THE MIX. It sounds great! I just finished watching it, and I don't know where people are coming from with this at all. Whatever result they were going for, they achieved it. It sounds live, without sounding rough or too raw.

Review dump time-

I just got the basic DVD copy, but the booklet is really nice (um especially the second page of credits )
The DVD is rated G here in Oz, so I guess they didn't notice SHIT in The Test That Stumped Them All. Oops!

BITS - Better than the studio version, JLB sounded great, the iPad sounds were a little louder than the studio version, which was nice for the atmopshere.
There was only one section with the intro organ where the keys felt a little low, but otherwise the mix was perfect. So energy, so powah! I know which version I'll be listening to in future.

6:00 - The mix was perfect here, and everyone sounded great. JLB nailed it too. Perfect performance!

TDEN - Again, I could hear JR perfectly, although he was overall a little softer than on the album for some of the really cool instrumental stuff, but I could still hear him clearly. This version didn't have as much kick as the studio version, although the bass and drums are absolutely cranked on the studio version, so that's to be expected. The BG verse vocals are definitely JLB. A great performance, although not as good as the studio version for me. JP's lip syncing was terrible. I'm glad to have a good quality live recording of this though, and I'm glad they included something off SC at least.

TITL - I skipped it for now, but I'll watch it later, as I really like that song.

TROAE - JP looked silly lip syncing to what were obviously JLB's high harmonies. JP couldn't have sung that.
I didn't like the live ending as much as the studio version, but otherwise another great live rendition. The Score version was a bit better, with MP's playing style and live tempo giving it more energy than here. But the little instrumental break before the keyboard solo sounded better here than any other version, I think, and I'm glad they're playing songs from the 12SS. TGP next tour plz.

LNF - I skipped it for now being a longer song, but I'll watch it later, as that's one of my favourites from ADTOE. I'm expecting it will surpass the studio version though.

Drum Solo - Nope, I don't do drum solos.

AFIL - Always been one of my favourites from WDADU, although the weakness of the vocal melodies/phrasing really showed here live. Overall I liked it though. With the good mix, that whole intro sounded really cool.

TSM - Oh here's that breathy vocal distortion everyone's been mentioning. It's easily noticeable, but it's not so bad once it gets into it. Definitely sounds like a recording issue that couldn't be fixed to me, so I can live with that.
I loved actually hearing JP's voice here, and it was overall an excellent rendition. The strings were a nice addition too. One of my favourite moments of the DVD so far, and a great moment from the tour captured.

BTS - I only skimmed this, as I'm not a fan of this song, but it seemed like another great performance. From what I heard, JLB sounds better than on the album. I'll actually listen to this later, because I'll probably enjoy this version a lot more.

Outcry - Don't like the song at all, so I skipped it.

Surrounded - Perfect! I liked the free tempo intro/outro with JLB and JR, and JLB did an amazing job. That was easily a Score level vocal performance, maybe better, and I'm pretty sure there's no autotune on this. That's all JLB, baby!

OTBOA - I'd already heard this one a few times from the Youtube stream, so I skipped it, but this is definitely the best recorded version of the song, and the one I'll listen to in future.

WIMH - Again it looked silly seeing JP lip snycing to obviously JLB's vocals (or maybe it was JLB mixed with JP vocals? I'll have to listen closer, but JLB is definitely in there). Aside from that, a good performance, although it felt absolutely redundant after having it already on both Score and Budokan. Waste of set time imo.

TTTSTA - Again, not really a necessary or noteworthy inclusion. It was interesting to hear the JLB backups though.

TSCO - The first moment where I actually noticed the lack of crowd, because I could see them ALL singing along. THE CRYING GIRL! Overall another great rendition, although not as good as the Score or LSFNY versions. JLB's performance is about equal to Score, maybe slightly better in areas, and it doesn't surprise me that they included it given that it's a live staple. I loved JLB's extra vocals at the end.
I hate to say it, but MM was not as good on this song as MP imo though. This is one of the few spots where I felt MM didn't have the feels. Coming out of the guitar solo, I was expecting the hard hitting hi-hat, the snare fill, then for the song to ramp up to 11, but it fell a bit flat with MM imo. A bit too clinical for this style of song. But I still enjoyed the song a lot, and it doesn't hurt to have documented the song with the new line-up.

BAI - I skipped this one too, as I'm not a big fan of the song.

Metropolis - JLB sounded better here than on Score, and this was another great performance. Nice to see the wizard hat make an appearance to add a bit of fun. Hello, Myung, so glad to see you my friend, it's been a while!
I loved the jazzy improv section. That section of Metropolis has had a lot of cool variations over the years, and this was no exception.
An excellent inclusion, although the video overlay was really weird at the start. I just saw "DRUGS" over the screen, and it gave me a good laugh.

And now to rate the band-

JLB - Sounded great, and all of the ADTOE songs sounded much better vocally here, probably because he was more comfortable with the music. He sounded very live, and powerful. Better than Score? In many ways, definitely. Maybe in every way. He sounded in top form.

JP - His tone was very throaty, but I didn't find it too loud. Playing wise, JP is always on.

JM - I could hear him, but I don't have much to say here. JM always plays solid, but I couldn't see a lot of him.

JR - I could hear him just fine, and he was even louder than the album in spots, with only a few points where he was lower. He was shown a lot too, so I was happy with that.

MM - Very entertaining to watch, and he was shown a lot, which made the video very enjoyable. The overhead toms were a bit too low, otherwise it was a good mix. I notice he is a light hitter though, and that affected the sound a bit for me at times. He didn't have a powerful bass/snare sound, and it sounded a bit weak sometimes. From watching, it felt like MM playing at 100% intensity is like MP playing at about 50% intensity. MP is a hard hitter though, and there were only a few songs where I felt this came into play. Overall it was a great showcase of MM's talents.


Overall, a very good live DVD, and well worth it. I was only listening on basic Logitech PC speakers for now because I wanted to crank it, but I had no major problems with the mix. I could hear the keyboards throughout, and there were only a few isolated sections where it felt a bit too low. I don't know what the complaints are about there, tbh.
The only time I had an issue with the crowd volume was TSCO where what I was hearing wasn't matching what I was seeing, but overall I prefer a softer crowd, so I actually prefer this. Perhaps it didn't capture the vibe of the crowd, but it doesn't detract at all to me.

I barely noticed JM in the mix, or in the video. I definitely would have liked to see a lot more of him. I was taken aback when I saw him do the Metropolis bass solo, because you don't see him much.

The video quality was very good. A lot of good overhead shots, and it showed a lot of MM's crazy playing. My only criticism (which is admittedly biased), is that it didn't show a lot of shots of the overall stage, including the screens. As I said, this is biased though, as I was hoping to see more of my work, but I thought Budokan did a perfect job of this. Fairly minor nitpick.


For video quality, I'd put this second, behind Budokan. Much better video and vibe than Score, and obviously better video than the rest. Budokan had a smooth, cinematic look, whereas this has a more live feel, so there's a bit of personal preference in there too, but Budokan looked a million bucks, and is still the benchmark.

For audio mix, I'd also put this second behind Budokan. Score was a little trebley and overcompressed, and JLB sounds much warmer on LALP.

Setlist was overall pretty good, although my lower ranking of ADTOE is a factor here. Same with Budokan if you weren't into ToT.

For band performance, everyone was on, and I'd probably actually rank it as their best in that regard.

I haven't checked out the bonus songs yet, but I'll be doing that right now.


I'd probably give the show a 8.5 - 9 / 10. Not perfect, but damn amazing!

[obelix5150]

You skipped This is the Life, Lost Not Forgotten, the drum solo, Beneath The Surface, Outcry, and Breaking all Illusions? Some of those tracks were my favorites on the DVD! the drum solo is awe inspiring, even if you're not into drum solos you should still check it out. MM does it very very musically while still being an absolute technical and musical powerhouse.

[Cyclopssss]

After two entire runthroughs I must say I think it's a stellar dvd! Great performances, fantastic picture and sound quality. I loved the documentary as well. Made me want to rewatch the drummer auditions again as well.