Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions

[DJay32]

Black Clouds & Silver Linings is a strange album for me. I love it, I genuinely love all the pieces (save "Wither," which is more a hit/miss with me), but I'm just not always in the mood for the album. I'm like that with all music; I genuinely enjoy everything I listen to, and if in the right mood, I can obsess over anything. But it all depends on the mood I'm in.

"A Nightmare to Remember" is a killer song when I'm in a heavy mood, and I'll gladly put up with the repetition towards the end. I mean, St. Anger is one of my favourite albums of all time, so repetition really isn't much of a problem for me. As for the "Day after day" section, I do find it absolutely hilarious, but I don't detract that from the song or anything. xD I just find it hilarious. A mood whiplash that I'm pretty used to by now. It puts a bit of a "This happened years ago, isn't it funny in retrospect" feel. Now, the lyrics don't quite do that, but the sound does.

"A Rite of Passage," total fun at parties. Great to listen to when I want background music. Sure, it's not that complicated or spectacular, but music doesn't have to be. Sometimes music can just be background music! And if anything, "A Nightmare to Remember's" repetitive ending is a good way of segueing listeners into that "background music" feel. It's just feel-good music to enjoy, y'know? One of the reasons Dream Theater is so accessible to non-prog fans. :D

"Wither," again, nothing too special. Though by this point, I'm still in that background music mood. ..I'll be honest, I can see a lot of reasons to criticize this album.

"The Shattered Fortress," god, see, this is a weird thing. Because this is one of the best endings to an epic that I have ever heard in my life, yet I can also totally understand why most people can't get into it. It's because the Twelve-Step Suite wasn't exactly blatant; the band never exactly said "LISTEN TO THESE SONGS IN ONE SET ORDER," so people tend to just... consider them together without listening to them all as one. But I swear, when you stop looking at the songs as "songs" and look at them as just movements, the entire epic e0iwfodri0fdso it's just tops, y'know? This is an ending that always gets me pumped, the reprisals are orgasmic when put in context, and I love how it all fits together. Though yes, as an individual song, this is a very strange piece that does not sound right at all.

"The Best of Times," I enjoy a lot. Beautiful, for sure. As for the lyrics, I view it as if it were a song from a rock opera taken out of context. There's clearly a lot of "plot" elements not explained, but I understand the idea: Mike is singing to his dying father, and he wishes he could sing forever. And the fact that Mike was able to convey the idea of the lyrics even though we don't fully get the specifics, well, I think that's admirable. We don't have to know every single event he's talking about; the idea is clear: They're nostalgic memories of a perfect role model. We all probably have memories like that. I say "probably" because I don't quite, but I understand most people do. xD Hell, this song makes me cry because it reminds me of reading stories of amazing fathers, of hearing about my friends' amazing fathers, and then remembering that I never really had that.

..but I digress. "The Count of Tuscany!" Gorgeous, gorgeous. And, as expected, I seem to be one of the few who loves the lyrics. I dunno, man! I see them as more of a playful and quirky homage to older progressive rock (Genesis, for instance!). It has the characters that attempt to be colourful, the plot told through lyrics, the occasional jab at wordplay, and the beautiful ending. To me, it sounds like it knows the situation wasn't that bad, but it's being quirky about it to pay homage. I mean, just listen to the music-- not the lyrics, but the instruments-- throughout the second five minutes. That sounds quirky as hell. It sounds like what I commonly associate with prog: Goofy melodies, a "noodly" feel! One thing's for sure: The music does not sound serious other than the bookending passages. And then there's the big "Xanadu"-esque guitar volume-swell segment, making me think more and more that it's just a loving homage to classic prog. ..am I making any sense?

I will.. admit that I don't think Black Clouds & Silver Linings works best when listening to it all the way through. The songs are all rather separate instances, meant to be listened to in different mindsets to each other. At least, to me. I find the main mistake Dream Theater made with the album was labeling it as a concept album; after all, not exactly all the songs are about "every black cloud has a silver lining," are they? I have the same complaint with A Dramatic Turn of Events; they're labeled as concept albums, but most of the songs don't share the motifs they're claimed to. Instead, I treat both albums as just collections of songs, and if I don't fully appreciate a song on one listening, I'll try all kinds of different things until I get it right.

..but then again, what do I know?

[robwebster]

Excellent post!

Really agree with your verdict on A Rite of Passage. A weird thing about Dream Theater fans is that for quite a few of them, the image they have of the band in their head doesn't really match the reality of the band. Once every two years, there's a thread where we all make up our own versions of the songs from the upcoming album. And without fail, there are about five which go something like this:

The Loquaciousness of Time
1. Jehovah's Regret
2. Expounding on a Nightmare
3. Kaleidoscopic Tranquillity
4. Constantinople
  i. Memories of the Twilight Realm
  ii. Egregious Facsimile
5. David and Goliath
6. The Manifold Idiosyncracies of a Dying Man
7. The Loquaciousness of Time pt. 1
8. The Loquaciousness of Time pt. 2

And I always think "Have I stumbled onto the Mars Volta message board or something?" Dream Theater have never been that band.  Maybe I'm just being vindictive, or arrogant - maybe my image of the band is a little skewed too. I don't think it is, I managed to aaaalmost guess one last time - made up a track called "Under the Surface," get in -  but you see it all over. Another example, there'll be the periodic "I put on some Dream Theater on the jukebox" thread and there'll always be two or three posts along the lines of "did everyone's nose start bleeding" or sometimes even "that's not fair on everyone else in the pub!" Almost a self loathing, like Dream Theater are this massive impenetrable fortress of a band that we should really keep to ourselves, with eldritch compositions that most normal people would quite rightly hate and we shouldn't dare inflict on them. But, by and large... I'd say they're very unpretentious!

They write big heavy riffs, soaring choruses, blistering solos, striking melodies - what you see is pretty much what you get. There's the odd baffling instrumental break, the odd Dance of Eternity or intro to Octavarium but even something like The Dark Eternal Night is built around a riff that even a toddler could headbang to. Most of the wacky instrumental stuff is very much kept behind-the-curtain. Time signatures are employed so deftly that most people won't even notice, just leap straight to the nifty melody. These Walls, for example, can't pin down a time signature - but that's a song your gran could quite happily sing along to.

Dream Theater are very much prog rock with an emphasis on the rock, and they have been ever since A Fortune in Lies. They are incredibly accessible, very down-to-earth; miles away from the latin-spouting jazz noisesters a fair chunk of us seem to bashfully think they are, and it's very much one of ARoP's strengths. Killer riff, rousing chorus, solo break, end. So, keen observation, and one that I don't feel like I see even slightly often enough.

Dream Theater are a band for whom, by and large, a solo is just a solo. Not an ounce of pretention in their bodies.

[unklejman]

"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.


I voted "it's ok" back when this thread was first made. Ever since ADToE was released, I like to just kind of forget Black Clouds, and Systematic Chaos exist.

[BlobVanDam]

"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.

It is for the most part, although it throws in bars of 5/8 during the verses to mix it up, which gives a unique phrasing to the vocal lines, and really helps drive the song imo.

[robwebster]

"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.

It is for the most part, although it throws in bars of 5/8 during the verses to mix it up, which gives a unique phrasing to the vocal lines, and really helps drive the song imo.

Yep!

Which... demonstrates my point pretty well, actually! Really easy not to notice, absolutely no shame in it. Much of the fiddly stuff is hidden behind the curtain. It doesn't jar - you don't notice something's off-kilter, just feel the effects.

[BlobVanDam]

"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.

It is for the most part, although it throws in bars of 5/8 during the verses to mix it up, which gives a unique phrasing to the vocal lines, and really helps drive the song imo.

Yep!

Which... demonstrates my point pretty well, actually! Really easy not to notice, absolutely no shame in it. Much of the fiddly stuff is hidden behind the curtain. It doesn't jar - you don't notice something's off-kilter, just feel the effects.

It doesn't feel like it's there just to show off because they can. If it was straight up 6/8 during the softer verses, it would sound too calm and ballady, but that doesn't fit with the lyrical themes. The use of 5/8 just adds that little bit of tension and unease to propel the song forward, just enough to force it out of that calm 6/8 rhythm, without being at all jarring to the casual listener.
DT are quite good at making odd time signatures sound natural without sounding contrived, as a lot of other prog metal music does to me.

[Kotowboy]

Plus for the most part - the first three or four songs on " Octavarium " are primarily in 4/4. Only These Walls throws in some 6/8 and 5/8 action.

[Shattered Glass]

The sequence from jp's solo at the end of 'Times' to the chord progression at the start of the Count is fucking ecstacy. Up there with Hells- Lines and Shadows- Scarred for my favourite song transitions

[Super Dude]

Just read through some of my old posts in this thread. I can't believe I thought this album wasn't constant BALLS BALLS BALLS.

[wasteland]

I voted "It was good". Nowadays, I would have to give it some thought, as it now borderlines the OK option.

[Super Dude]

I voted "It was good". Nowadays, I would have to give it some thought, as it now borderlines the OK option.

Totally. Not terrible, but in retrospect not radically different than its predecessor.

[wasteland]

Well, I guess there are some underlying similarities, but I still feel that BCSL is still superior to SC in most parameters. Anyway, the decline of Black Clouds is also due to the quality of the following release, at least to me.

[yorost]

Why would another release affect your opinion of Black Clouds?  It's still the same album.  It declined for me, at best ok now, but that happened well before ADToE.  ...I also never thought ADToE was that great.

[wasteland]

 :tupThe album is still the same, of course, but since ADTOE is pretty much the closest thing to what I want DT to sound since Awake, its release caused quite a shift of my appreciation. Nothing dramatic, I just like it a tad less than two years ago. I still play it on my car regularly

[?]

I'm surprised that so many people thought it's one of their best albums... I'm not trying to sound condescending or bash the album - the amount of those votes is just huge considering how much criticism BC&SL gets now.

[jingle.boy]

Why would another release affect your opinion of Black Clouds?  It's still the same album.  It declined for me, at best ok now, but that happened well before ADToE.  ...I also never thought ADToE was that great.

When things are put in perspective, or made relative by newer things or different expectations.

[Dark Castle]

I put it as a middle pack album.  It was my first DT album and I think it's much better than most say it is, but having heard the rest of their discography, there's no way I could keep it in the top-tier.

[ReaPsTA]

Really dropped off for me.

I avoid ANTR because of the.... whatever you call it vocal section.

AROP just feels flawed to me.  Don't even know why.

Wither's actually held up the best.  Just a great song.

Lyrics in TSF really bother me.  Don't like other little things.

Lyrics in TBOT again don't fully appeal to me.

Same with lyrics in TCOT.

One thing I appreciate about ADTOE, I guess, is how much better the lyrics are.

[Ben_Jamin]

What dragged this album down was the length of the 6 songs. It has the usual key guitar solo sections. Thats all for me. I enjoy The Shattered Fortress a lot, its a good summary of the subject matter using the past riffs as is or modified, doesnt bother me its not all new as those past struggles are being resolved at this point and the music potrays those said struggles.

I didnt enjoy AROP much then and dont now. Although I like the vocal melodies. The rest remain on the playlist as always. But I do think this albums length and song ratio dragged it down immensly.

[DebraKadabra]

While it's not as bad as Systematic Chaos, it's just OK to me.

[Rob]

I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.

What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.

Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.

[wasteland]

I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.

What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.

Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.

Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! 

[Rob]

I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.

What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.

Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.

Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! 

Mind to elaborate?

[wasteland]

I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.

What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.

Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.

Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! 

Mind to elaborate?

That won't be needed

https://www.quickmeme.com/Dissatisfied-Steven-Wilson/?upcoming

[Rob]

I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.

What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.

Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.

Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! 

Mind to elaborate?

That won't be needed

https://www.quickmeme.com/Dissatisfied-Steven-Wilson/?upcoming

Yeah, those are hilarious.   
I thought you were either referring to this or the fact that I respect changes in style by a musician and usually enjoy what he does nonetheless, thus I could really be the ultimate SW fan. 
But well, I love me some dark, depressing stuff, too. With Dream Theater it's just... Firstly, they used to have uplifting parts and that somehow just vanished and secondly, I think it would really suit the music. This exact type of Prog Metal just needs happy rushesque parts, otherwise there's just something missing.

[Ben_Jamin]

I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.

What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.

Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.

Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! 

Mind to elaborate?

That won't be needed

https://www.quickmeme.com/Dissatisfied-Steven-Wilson/?upcoming

Yeah, those are hilarious.   
I thought you were either referring to this or the fact that I respect changes in style by a musician and usually enjoy what he does nonetheless, thus I could really be the ultimate SW fan. 
But well, I love me some dark, depressing stuff, too. With Dream Theater it's just... Firstly, they used to have uplifting parts and that somehow just vanished and secondly, I think it would really suit the music. This exact type of Prog Metal just needs happy rushesque parts, otherwise there's just something missing.

That may be the reason why I&W is so highly praised.

[Rob]

Exactly and that's the reason why it's my favorite DT album. It's just so warm, positive and awesome. 

[MoraWintersoul]

Exactly and that's the reason why it's my favorite DT album. It's just so warm, positive and awesome. 

No need to be ashamed of loving things warm, positive and awesome

[wasteland]

Exactly and that's the reason why it's my favorite DT album. It's just so warm, positive and awesome. 

No need to be ashamed of loving things warm, positive and awesome

Especially if they are called Images And Words. Or breasts 

[Rob]

Hooray for boobies. 

[MoraWintersoul]

*hides*

[wasteland]

*hides*

You brought this upon yourself, you can't just hide or flee!

Maybe we should get back on topic, before hef arrives...

[snapple]

Nothing about the album gives me an emotional connection. ADTOE does that. As well as increased blood flow to my penis.

[MoraWintersoul]

You brought this upon yourself, you can't just hide or flee!

Maybe we should get back on topic, before hef arrives...

YOU'VE BROUGHT IT UPON YOURSELF
IT'S SLOW BUT FINAL WITH NOTHING TO GAIN

Whoops, wrong DT
I think they should have called IAW "Breasts".

[wasteland]

I agree with you, snap. Well, maybe not on the increased blood flow, but that's just details. 

You brought this upon yourself, you can't just hide or flee!

Maybe we should get back on topic, before hef arrives...

YOU'VE BROUGHT IT UPON YOURSELF
IT'S SLOW BUT FINAL WITH NOTHING TO GAIN

Whoops, wrong DT
I think they should have called IAW "Breasts".

Drool Me Under
Another Boob
Take The Tits
Surrounded
Milkopolis
Under A Flesh Boob
Squeeze For Milk
Leaning To Pinch