Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

I enjoy SC more than I&W. 

You must be a youngin

Yes, that would mean he hasn't lost his hearing yet. 

[?]

Kevin Moore needs to get laid or something. His lyrics, while poetic, make me want to kill myself. It's like hanging around Marvin the Paranoid Android all the time.

[robwebster]

SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.

Systematic Chaos is wonderful. I don't like the structure, I think it loses steam as it carries on, but I think the playful songwriter thing suits the band so much better than the tortured poet thing. It's something their later output is criticised for, but I think a lot of the stuff they've written since Jordan joined is a band that's mature and confident enough that it knows it doesn't have to make every song into a mission. You'd never have got The Dark Eternal Night on Images and Words, and while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way. SC was never going to be popular on initial release - a new album's expected to be all things to all people, and in aiming for a single niche, Systematic Chaos didn't accomplish that - but I hope, with time, more of us start warming to it.

[Jaffa]

Hey look, a robwebster post!  Always a great way to start my day.   

[Fisi]

Jordan should use his iOS devices and other gadgets more.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.

Systematic Chaos is wonderful. I don't like the structure, I think it loses steam as it carries on, but I think the playful songwriter thing suits the band so much better than the tortured poet thing. It's something their later output is criticised for, but I think a lot of the stuff they've written since Jordan joined is a band that's mature and confident enough that it knows it doesn't have to make every song into a mission. You'd never have got The Dark Eternal Night on Images and Words, and while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way. SC was never going to be popular on initial release - a new album's expected to be all things to all people, and in aiming for a single niche, Systematic Chaos didn't accomplish that - but I hope, with time, more of us start warming to it.

No you wouldn't have. You got an album of now classic songs that changed the genre, instead. Thank the good Lord we didn't get TDEN on I&W.

[jakepriest]

TDEN instead of Take The Time would have made the album miles better.

[robwebster]

SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.

Systematic Chaos is wonderful. I don't like the structure, I think it loses steam as it carries on, but I think the playful songwriter thing suits the band so much better than the tortured poet thing. It's something their later output is criticised for, but I think a lot of the stuff they've written since Jordan joined is a band that's mature and confident enough that it knows it doesn't have to make every song into a mission. You'd never have got The Dark Eternal Night on Images and Words, and while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way. SC was never going to be popular on initial release - a new album's expected to be all things to all people, and in aiming for a single niche, Systematic Chaos didn't accomplish that - but I hope, with time, more of us start warming to it.

No you wouldn't have. You got an album of now classic songs that changed the genre, instead. Thank the good Lord we didn't get TDEN on I&W.

Or, in other words - "while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way."

(Frankly, TDEN would have changed the living fuck out of the genre if it happened in 1992, but that's aside the point!)

[JayOctavarium]

Just imagine how I&W would sound if it had TDEN on it.

Another Day fades out... and then... BAM

HEAVY AS ALL LIVING SHIT RIFFAGE

[Zook]

I never thought Systematic Chaos was bad, but it does contain their worst song, Prophets of War. SC is still better than BCSL, but I'd rather listen to The Count of Tuscany than anything on SC.

[robwebster]

Just imagine how I&W would sound if it had TDEN on it.

Another Day fades out... and then... BAM

HEAVY AS ALL LIVING SHIT RIFFAGE

Not Another Day, but The Dark Eternal Night went back to back with Images and Words on the Chaos in Motion tour, and it was glorious.

"Tonight I'll still be lying here, surrounded... in all... the light..."

NANANURR. NANA DUNANANA DUNANANA NANANURR.

I'm being flippant, but they were genuinely brilliant together. Both excellent songs, and the contrast was incredible.

[Sketchy]

... Damnit Robwester, that would have been amazing.

[The King in Crimson]

TDEN instead of Take The Time would have made the album miles better.

Take The Time is their best song so no. 

TDEN is pretty awesome though.

[NotePad]

When I criticize DT for their instrumentals often being too long or bringing the song to places that don't fit the rest of the song, the common response is for people to tell me I shouldnt listen to DT and maybe they're not the band for me. But the thing is, I really enjoy DT. Maybe not as much as I used to because each new release IMHO never sounds to go anyplace new, but I still like a lot of their stuff. They're also the type of band that makes music that requires repeat listens at first to get really into.

I don't hate their instrumental sections, but as Iv said in the past, a lot of them take me out of the song and have a totally different vibe then the rest. Honor Thy Father, despite the instrumental sections, is awesome.

Musically SFAM is a continuation of what they were doing on I&W, for the most part. And honestly, they're 2 of my least favorite DT albums. I like them, and both have a few really great songs, but overall....meh. SFAM has a cool rock/metal opera feel to it. This is one of the reasons I can't listen to it as often, I really have to be in the mood for it. And I do love the ambition of it, especially after FII.

[KevShmev]

The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

You don't think JP's solo is wanky?

Granted, I think it is one of his better "hey, listen to me rape the shit out of my guitar" solos , and I don't see how it is not wanky.

Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.

There really should be a rule about posting while drunk.

[Tim van Duijn]

When I criticize DT for their instrumentals often being too long or bringing the song to places that don't fit the rest of the song, the common response is for people to tell me I shouldnt listen to DT and maybe they're not the band for me. But the thing is, I really enjoy DT. Maybe not as much as I used to because each new release IMHO never sounds to go anyplace new, but I still like a lot of their stuff. They're also the type of band that makes music that requires repeat listens at first to get really into.

I don't hate their instrumental sections, but as Iv said in the past, a lot of them take me out of the song and have a totally different vibe then the rest. Honor Thy Father, despite the instrumental sections, is awesome.

Musically SFAM is a continuation of what they were doing on I&W, for the most part. And honestly, they're 2 of my least favorite DT albums. I like them, and both have a few really great songs, but overall....meh. SFAM has a cool rock/metal opera feel to it. This is one of the reasons I can't listen to it as often, I really have to be in the mood for it. And I do love the ambition of it, especially after FII.

I get what you mean. Most of the time the instrumental sections are telling a stort. For example: The Dance of Eternity is a instrumental song but it is definitely telling a story, if you know the concept of the album that is. The instrumental part in Octavarium is also telling a story. Instrumental sections in In The Presence of Enemies, A Change of Seasons, Illumination Theory and The Count of Tuscany (especially this one!) are also telling a story. It is their way to drag you into the concept of the song and creating an amazing atmosphere.

[NotePad]

I wish MP and now MM would be more different with they're sound/style. I know about the odd time signatures and all that, I also don't know much about those kind of things. Danny Carey is probably my favorite drummer becuase he does some cool things and comes up with awesome sounds. His drumming on Right In Two, Reflection, Intension- so great and beautiful to hear. I sometimes wish the drummers in DT did more things like that. Danny Carey is one of the few drummers I love listening to, and listen specifically for.

[jakepriest]

Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.

There really should be a rule about posting while drunk.

I wasn't even drunk dude. Words cannot summarize how much I dislike KM's parts in Take The Time.

[XB0BX]

I love the keyboard in TtT, very catchy and memorable.

[Outcrier]

No you wouldn't have. You got an album of now classic songs that changed the genre, instead. Thank the good Lord we didn't get TDEN on I&W.

Definitely 

[Rodni Demental]

JR must have been high when we made the Bebot solo in A Rite of Passage. 

[fibreoptix]

Not Another Day, but The Dark Eternal Night went back to back with Images and Words on the Chaos in Motion tour, and it was glorious.

"Tonight I'll still be lying here, surrounded... in all... the light..."

NANANURR. NANA DUNANANA DUNANANA NANANURR.

I'm being flippant, but they were genuinely brilliant together. Both excellent songs, and the contrast was incredible.

Speaking of opinions... before you just vanished I was quite interested to hear your thoughts on DT12. Care to plop 'em somewhere? In your own time of course.

[BlobVanDam]

The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

You don't think JP's solo is wanky?

Granted, I think it is one of his better "hey, listen to me rape the shit out of my guitar" solos , and I don't see how it is not wanky.

I do think it's wanky (in a good way that fits that song), although I don't really think of that as part of that instrumental section, just because it's not contiguous with that big block of whole band instrumental arrangement.

I'm not arguing that it's not part of the instrumental section, so if it makes you happier, I'll revise it to "two and a half minutes of no wanky solos at all and then an awesome wanky solo".

[King Postwhore]

Blob,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGhVkQ7qzA

[Outcrier]

When I criticize DT for their instrumentals often being too long or bringing the song to places that don't fit the rest of the song, the common response is for people to tell me I shouldnt listen to DT and maybe they're not the band for me. But the thing is, I really enjoy DT. Maybe not as much as I used to because each new release IMHO never sounds to go anyplace new, but I still like a lot of their stuff. They're also the type of band that makes music that requires repeat listens at first to get really into.

I don't hate their instrumental sections, but as Iv said in the past, a lot of them take me out of the song and have a totally different vibe then the rest. Honor Thy Father, despite the instrumental sections, is awesome.

Musically SFAM is a continuation of what they were doing on I&W, for the most part. And honestly, they're 2 of my least favorite DT albums. I like them, and both have a few really great songs, but overall....meh. SFAM has a cool rock/metal opera feel to it. This is one of the reasons I can't listen to it as often, I really have to be in the mood for it. And I do love the ambition of it, especially after FII.

Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

[TheGreatPretender]

Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

While I could argue that you could just take those songs, rip them from the CD onto your computer or MP3 player and just listen to them, I will say that how much I listen to a song doesn't equate at all to how much I like it.

I think SFAM is the holy grail of all music albums everywhere, I worship it. But I will admit, at one point, I had overplayed it for myself, so now, I only listen to it on special occasions, when I can give it the proper attention it deserves. That doesn't make it and less highly regarded by me.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

While I could argue that you could just take those songs, rip them from the CD onto your computer or MP3 player and just listen to them, I will say that how much I listen to a song doesn't equate at all to how much I like it.

I think SFAM is the holy grail of all music albums everywhere, I worship it. But I will admit, at one point, I had overplayed it for myself, so now, I only listen to it on special occasions, when I can give it the proper attention it deserves. That doesn't make it and less highly regarded by me.

I agree, how often you listen to something doesn't always correlate with how much you actually enjoy it. I feel the same way towards SFAM cause it works so much better as a whole but is also massive in scope so it requires time to really appreciate it fully, though from time to time I will go back and listen to some of its individual songs.

The same could be applied to most of my favorite albums, as well as how even though I may love it to death, I might overplay it for myself. Only on very rare occasions does that not apply.

[KevShmev]

The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

You don't think JP's solo is wanky?

Granted, I think it is one of his better "hey, listen to me rape the shit out of my guitar" solos , and I don't see how it is not wanky.

I do think it's wanky (in a good way that fits that song), although I don't really think of that as part of that instrumental section, just because it's not contiguous with that big block of whole band instrumental arrangement.

I'm not arguing that it's not part of the instrumental section, so if it makes you happier, I'll revise it to "two and a half minutes of no wanky solos at all and then an awesome wanky solo".

That seems like a fair compromise.

[NotePad]

Dark Eternal Night is a great song. But it would be much better if the instrumental section was at least shortened. I love dark, angry DT.

Something else that will come up in DT songs that I don't enjoy and/or takes me out of the song are when JR plays really tacky, almost cartoonish stuff with his keyboards. Happens a lot when he does solos. From memory, I can say I often hear this during the beginning of instrumental sections. Hell, maybe it isn't even JR doing it but someone else, but I'm fairly certain it is him. I can't remember any particular songs that I can name, but it happens a lot. Was listening to SC today and definitely heard this. May have been in TDEN, not sure. But it's there, and it's frequent for DT.

But like it said, I really like DT! But there are times, like the one's we've been discussing, where they lose me. They're the type of band that has a lot in their music, and a lot in each song even! They appeal to many, but also don't always appeal to everyone

Like I'v said before, I wish they would approach the writing of a new album with more self-restraint. And not show off so often. They can never seem to create an atmosphere and keep it for very long. They repeat themselves a LOT, and often sound very uninspired. Sometimes when I listen to DT I wonder, did they get inspired by any particular idea or sound when they came up with this? Or did they just think, 'I'm gonna come up with a heavy riff', and start hammering away, then go, 'then we should break it down and go soft for a bit', then go, 'lets let loose here for a bit and go crazy and solo whatever', and do that for hours and hours and just compile it all together without ever really refining ideas and sounds and riffs into more specific styles, then go 'Great! Cool! Five 15 minutes epics!'

I swear, I'm not making fun of DT. I have huge respect for the band, especially John Petrucci. But I know they could do so much more and so much better if they created more songs that actually sound focused.

Just stirrin' the shit...

[TheGreatPretender]

A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.

[erwinrafael]

Dark Eternal Night is a great song. But it would be much better if the instrumental section was at least shortened. I love dark, angry DT.

Something else that will come up in DT songs that I don't enjoy and/or takes me out of the song are when JR plays really tacky, almost cartoonish stuff with his keyboards. Happens a lot when he does solos. From memory, I can say I often hear this during the beginning of instrumental sections. Hell, maybe it isn't even JR doing it but someone else, but I'm fairly certain it is him. I can't remember any particular songs that I can name, but it happens a lot. Was listening to SC today and definitely heard this. May have been in TDEN, not sure. But it's there, and it's frequent for DT.

But like it said, I really like DT! But there are times, like the one's we've been discussing, where they lose me. They're the type of band that has a lot in their music, and a lot in each song even! They appeal to many, but also don't always appeal to everyone

Like I'v said before, I wish they would approach the writing of a new album with more self-restraint. And not show off so often. They can never seem to create an atmosphere and keep it for very long. They repeat themselves a LOT, and often sound very uninspired. Sometimes when I listen to DT I wonder, did they get inspired by any particular idea or sound when they came up with this? Or did they just think, 'I'm gonna come up with a heavy riff', and start hammering away, then go, 'then we should break it down and go soft for a bit', then go, 'lets let loose here for a bit and go crazy and solo whatever', and do that for hours and hours and just compile it all together without ever really refining ideas and sounds and riffs into more specific styles, then go 'Great! Cool! Five 15 minutes epics!'

I swear, I'm not making fun of DT. I have huge respect for the band, especially John Petrucci. But I know they could do so much more and so much better if they created more songs that actually sound focused.

Just stirrin' the shit...

Focused? What exactly do you mean by focused?

Octavarium and Illumination Theory, for example, are very long songs, but the instrumentals tell a story. Which is why they are long. Some are a bit wanky, but a lot of their albums have purposive instrumentals. I would not describe them as unfocused really. What example of songs would you say are unfocused?

[erwinrafael]

A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.

Or for MM to play the tabla. That's the deal breaker.

[Invisible]

A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.

Which makes me ask the good ol' philosophical question "What is Dream Theater?". I mean, is Dream Theater Trial of Tears, is it Metropolis, Pull Me Under, I Walk Beside You, Octavarium, Constant Motion, Just Let Me Breathe, The Glass Prison, Lifting Shadows, Speak To Me, A Change Of Seasons?... I mean, there quite a few sides to the band, but as you may or may not have observed, most of my examples of diversitiy come from the older material. I actually liked when there wasn't a DT "the prog metal band", but instead they did not restrain themselves to a sound or genre. They lost that progresively over the years.

That being said, this last album sounds the most solid and focused in years, like it or not. The songs change and evolve but never going far away from the original idea, and I liked the way they did it. I miss their older diversity, but as far as the "modern" DT sound, this may be their best effort. Of course, the exception on focused writing would be Illumination Theory, which has more of suite than a song feel to it, given how different the parts are. I even think that Six Degrees(the song) is a lot more cohesive, but aside from that, all their other songs sound very focused to me. I believe that for once, they saved all their riff/wank party for Enigma Machine, and let the other songs stay pretty much on point.

Oh, and btw, I always thought that the 'DT is not for everyone' thing was pretty much a fact .

[Tis BOOLsheet]

A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.

Which makes me ask the good ol' philosophical question "What is Dream Theater?". I mean, is Dream Theater Trial of Tears, is it Metropolis, Pull Me Under, I Walk Beside You, Octavarium, Constant Motion, Just Let Me Breathe, The Glass Prison, Lifting Shadows, Speak To Me, A Change Of Seasons?... I mean, there quite a few sides to the band, but as you may or may not have observed, most of my examples of diversitiy come from the older material. I actually liked when there wasn't a DT "the prog metal band", but instead they did not restrain themselves to a sound or genre. They lost that progresively over the years.

That being said, this last album sounds the most solid and focused in years, like it or not. The songs change and evolve but never going far away from the original idea, and I liked the way they did it. I miss their older diversity, but as far as the "modern" DT sound, this may be their best effort. Of course, the exception on focused writing would be Illumination Theory, which has more of suite than a song feel to it, given how different the parts are. I even think that Six Degrees(the song) is a lot more cohesive, but aside from that, all their other songs sound very focused to me. I believe that for once, they saved all their riff/wank party for Enigma Machine, and let the other songs stay pretty much on point.

Oh, and btw, I always thought that the 'DT is not for everyone' thing was pretty much a fact .

DT is a progressive metal band. It's not that philosophical or complicated. The genre often includes influences from other styles. The fact that they wrote I Walk Beside You doesn't mean they are no longer only prog-metal and now partly a pop-rock band.  Those songs are the exception, rather than the rule.

[425]

Octavarium and Illumination Theory, for example, are very long songs, but the instrumentals tell a story. Which is why they are long. Some are a bit wanky, but a lot of their albums have purposive instrumentals. I would not describe them as unfocused really. What example of songs would you say are unfocused?

The Dance of Eternity