Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[robwebster]

Yeah, I don't get on with the TEI video - I don't think it works for me. Not very slick, a little bit college movie project, and I don't like the speaking over the intro. Splits the focus too much. On the Backs of Angels is cool, though. Good live visuals, a little repetitious for it but thrifty but striking, and I do like The Looking Glass - nothing special, but pretty and tastefully directed.

I think videos are absolutely as important as they've ever been, though. Frankly, they're more important, now: aside from Pull Me Under, they never got seen in MTV's heyday. Now that we can curate our own playlists, YouTube is the first place most people go to stream music, so that video's now going to be the first thing the next generation of fans is going to see. Give them something cool to look at.

Funnily, the old Dark Eternal Night video is probably the one that best matches the song. TDEN's great heard, but mindblowing witnessed. They seem to have taken it down, now, imagine the video quality's not as competitive any more. Was good, though!

[tiagodon]

Now that we can curate our own playlists, YouTube is the first place most people go to stream music, so that video's now going to be the first thing the next generation of fans is going to see. Give them something cool to look at.

This! Videos are a very important marketing tool!
Exchanging songs with friends today = exchanging videos on youtube!

[Crow]

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.

Uhh not really? Been seeing plenty of people who dislike it and it's in competition for their worst album IMO.

[Daso]

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.

Uhh not really? Been seeing plenty of people who dislike it and it's in competition for their worst album IMO.

I believe "universally" meant "mostly", and at least if you use the forum's polls as reference (which are not necessarily the truth but a useful tool to have some sort of idea of how a majority think) the album is mostly praised. Perhaps the opinions which lean the balance towards disliking are more noticeable but, in quantity, most criticism I've read (most likely applies to theseoafs too) inside and outside the forum has been positive.

It's all in the word "universally", though.

[jammindude]

Agreed.

The naysayers tend to be a bit more vocal...but seriously.  I think a supermajority (which I believe is defined as "greater than 60%") really love the album.   

I would be willing to bet that a HUGE majority would say it was their best since Six Degrees.   I certainly think it's their best since Octavarium (though I'm in the minority in thinking that album is amazing...but it's grown in popularity since its release). 

[Rodni Demental]

Funnily, the old Dark Eternal Night video is probably the one that best matches the song. TDEN's great heard, but mindblowing witnessed. They seem to have taken it down, now, imagine the video quality's not as competitive any more. Was good, though!

Their was a Dark Eternal Night video?  I thought I was aware of them all but.. Dam. I haven't seen this, sounds curious.

Another thing that just occurred to me, Is on the modern consoles like Xbox Live for example, I remember a while back typing in Dream Theater into the music section to see what would happen (half expected to not find anything), but all the music vids showed up. From Pull Me Under/Take The Time/Another Day to The Slilent Man/Lie/Hollow Years to Contant Motion/A Rite of Passage/On The Backs of Angels/The Enemy Inside (and weirdly, a Live video of Forsaken from Chaos in Motion I think it was?). Apparently it was premium content that I couldn't access but their was like a 30 second preview for each one, I remember the Forsaken preview was actually a really good moment, just before the vocals get iffy. xD

Anyway, as much as DT couldn't have anticipated it, the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band. 

[robwebster]

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.

Uhh not really? Been seeing plenty of people who dislike it and it's in competition for their worst album IMO.

When I first logged on after the album's release, I saw a couple of people kicking up a fuss every time a DT12 track came up on anyone's top fifty list, and thought, "Oh, crikey, did it not go down particularly well?" A few more weeks revealed that, yes, it basically had, and it was just a few people hyping each other up. That's just happenstance, there's at least a handful of people who don't get on with every album; I'm probably one of those guys for Awake - I think it's all right, but but don't like it nearly as much as half the rest of this board does. I think it's a mistake to confuse that with a consensus, though, just as, in fairness, it's a mistake to confuse the consensus of this board with the fanbase at large. Constant Motion got played a lot because it was genuinely beloved - went down a treat at gigs, completely at odds with DTF.

No idea what the rest of the world's doing, but it's my experience that Dream Theater's been received fairly warmly, here.

Funnily, the old Dark Eternal Night video is probably the one that best matches the song. TDEN's great heard, but mindblowing witnessed. They seem to have taken it down, now, imagine the video quality's not as competitive any more. Was good, though!

Their was a Dark Eternal Night video?  I thought I was aware of them all but.. Dam. I haven't seen this, sounds curious.

It was just a little in-studio thing - footage of the recording itself - but it was actually the first anyone saw of TDEN! They released the video before the album came out, so we'd already had Constant Motion and then they released this grimy slab of crushing instrumental chaos.

ETA: The original is absolutely nowhere to be seen, no official channels, but it looked a bit like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-I5FimEeU

[Grizz]

the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band. 

The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

[TheGreatPretender]

The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

What I noticed is that this time around (at least here) there were SIGNIFICANTLY more women. Younger 20 - 30 something women, in fact. That was quite an interesting (and dramatic) turn of events.

[Rodni Demental]

the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band. 

The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

Yeah um.. I think you're describing me. I was 19 in 2009 and Black Clouds is the only tour that has come to my country and then they never came back!  And I got exposed to more DT because of music rhythm games.. Oh the shame.  In fairness, they were actually the most fun songs to play, and very satisfying to do well in (constant motion solo was finger destruction). And I really wanted to play the keyboard parts for On The Backs of Angels but never got the keyboard peripheral, which actually plays like the real thing being a genuine (abeit rather flimsy and plastic) 2 octave keyboard. Also, OTBOA was the only song on Rock Band 3 for a while to have the max difficulty rating for nearly every category (excluding vocals). 

The original is absolutely nowhere to be seen, no official channels, but it looked a bit like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-I5FimEeU

Thanks for that, many lulz. 

[Grizz]

the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band. 

The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

Yeah um.. I think you're describing me. I was 19 in 2009 and Black Clouds is the only tour that has come to my country and then they never came back!  And I got exposed to more DT because of music rhythm games.. Oh the shame. 

It's funny, I got into DT around the same time as all of those posers, and being in 5th-6th grade at the time that's probably what people thought of me. Little did they know that I got into my dad's DT collection and experienced my first eargasm.

I didn't mean to call you a poser, just a joke.

[Rodni Demental]

Oh no offence taken at all, I just thought it was funny because I was getting into them around that time too. A bunch of friends of mine went to that concert and were apparently quite into DT at the time and were real excited about the concert and these days they pretend like they never used to like them at all or something, it's weird. For me DT made it's way to being my #1 band and has been retaining that spot for the last 5 years. 

[erwinrafael]

My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

4/1 bro

[Lucien]

4/1 bro

[Grizz]

My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?

But... but... He'll save every one of us!

DUN DUN... DEN... DUN DIN... DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUNBA BA BOOM FLASH... AHH AHHHHHHHH...

[TheGreatPretender]

My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?

But... but... He'll save every one of us!

DUN DUN... DEN... DUN DIN... DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUNBA BA BOOM FLASH... AHH AHHHHHHHH...

See, now there's a Queen song that DT needs to cover!

[hefdaddy42]

My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?

It's a DTF tradition to change the forum to something else on April 1st. 

If you think Flash Gordon was bad, you would have had a heart attack over some of the past choices lol

[AngelBack]

Probably not all that controversial but TLG is a close 2nd to IT as the best song on DT and TEI is the least awesome.

[TheGreatPretender]

Probably not all that controversial but TLG is a close 2nd to IT as the best song on DT and TEI is the least awesome.

Still awesome though. TEI really does stand out. Even though the album is full of shorter songs, they're all still quite grand and melodic, and TEI being the only rocker on it.. It kind of stands out. Maybe they should've had another rocker on the album.

[robwebster]

Behind the Veil, Enigma Machine, and False Awakening Suite are all pretty heavy. As are most of the vocal passages in Illumination Theory.

The Looking Glass and Surrender to Reason aren't mega heavy, but they, too, are recognisably rock.

[TheGreatPretender]

Behind the Veil, Enigma Machine, and False Awakening Suite are all pretty heavy. As are most of the vocal passages in Illumination Theory.

Yeah, but BTV is still quite melodic, and doesn't have the same thrashy feel as TEI, which can be compared to songs like Panic Attack, in terms of its intensity. I can't say that about BtV. As for the other two, they might be heavy, but they're also instrumentals and extremely progressive, so I would never call them "Rockers".

[robwebster]

I think that's a false dichotomy. There are Dream Theater songs that more neatly fit one label than the other, but very few songs are just the one label, and no album has defied pigeon-holing more than DT12. The Enemy Inside is a ball of raw energy, it's the thrashiest song on the disc, but it's still heaving with melodic and progressive elements, all tightly packed into six minutes. Surrender to Reason, likewise, is both the murkiest, grimiest song on the album when you get to that gritty instrumental break, but also one of the most uplifting.

Behind the Veil is sort of all things at once. It's not the blitzkrieg of notes that TEI is, but it's a rocker, and it's an anthem, and it's a technical marvel. I think there's a fair argument that Enigma Machine's way heavier than The Enemy Inside.  I don't think belonging to one category disqualifies it from the other. The Enemy Inside's probably the only one on the album where a single category can tell even half the story!

So, yeah, I agree that The Enemy Inside is the only song on the album that particularly sounds like The Enemy Inside... but I think its miles upon miles away from being the only rocker.

[TheGreatPretender]

I still feel like it stands out. Everything that comes after it just fits together so well, but The Enemy Inside is like The Glass Prison on SDOIT. Compared to how the other songs go from melodic and orchestral, to down right atmospheric, TGS, being as heavy as it is, is almost jarring. And sure, on disc 2, we do get really heavy parts like War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All, but if you consider them a part of a greater whole that is the title song, then they're a very small part of a very progressive, epic and orchestral whole, so The Glass Prison still stands out like a sore thumb on the album for me. Even to a greater extent than TEI. But I guess I'm the only one who finds the presence of those songs jarring, compared to the rest of their respective albums.

[rumborak]

I'm not sure whether this is even all that controversial, but having seen them live many times over the years, I have to say James has a problem with intonation. I think they crank up the volume in their concerts to cover that up (and on official releases they patch it up), but when you listen to some more raw recordings of their concerts, he is off-pitch quite a bit.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not sure whether this is even all that controversial, but having seen them live many times over the years, I have to say James has a problem with intonation. I think they crank up the volume in their concerts to cover that up (and on official releases they patch it up), but when you listen to some more raw recordings of their concerts, he is off-pitch quite a bit.

I'm sure he's got on and off days. But I paid close attention to him when I went to see them this year, and he sounded flawless to me.

[BlobVanDam]

I think he's improved on that front over the past few tours, and has dialed back a bit on the vibrato which covers it up.

[puppyonacid]

Did I read somewhere (I'm sure it might have actually been in Lifting Shadows) that David Prater contends that JLB tends to sing consistently a little flat? That's his contention. I'm not saying whether I agree or not.

[Grizz]

I think the production on FII and Octavarium is a little to bright, to the point of feeling cold. The problem mostly lies in the drums on the former and the vocals on the latter.

On the other end, we have ToT, with way too much guitar gain, too much pig and synthy string sound, and a muddy drum mix that could only be topped by ADToE.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I'm not sure whether this is even all that controversial, but having seen them live many times over the years, I have to say James has a problem with intonation. I think they crank up the volume in their concerts to cover that up (and on official releases they patch it up), but when you listen to some more raw recordings of their concerts, he is off-pitch quite a bit.

I contend that it's not controversial at all; nor is it an opinion. It's just a flat (no pun intended) out fact.

[Rodni Demental]

Would it be fair to say something like, The Enemy Inside = Constant Motion = As I Am = A Rite Of Passage = Pull Me Under = Panic Attack = On The Backs Of Angels? (I'd almost say Honor Thy Father, but that one's sorta different somehow, and As I Am kind of fits the bill just a little bit more. Same with Build Me Up Break Me Down, it has all the bits and pieces, it's problem is that OTBOA exists). I'm not just listing singles here, it's just all of these songs seem to serve a similar purpose on the album they originate from. I believe the other albums have a candidate for this idea but it gets more convoluted and subjective to include them all.

But DT songs can definitely be categorised into multiple different categories depending on your definition, so nothing is set. Although to me, The Enemy Inside is the 'hard rocker' by default, essentially the opening track (after an intro), being used as a set opener live, was released as the single. It's non stop energetic. It does actually have a few more elements than the 'hard rockers' of the past but I think it primarily takes this role on the new album. I be careful not to use the word 'heavy' because even though TEI is certainly a heavy song, the tone and technique style plays a huge part in determining if it's 'hard' or 'heavy' (but I'll avoid getting into attempts to describe abstract sounds with common words that can't properly define these ideas, they can only symbolise them).  Because as someone mentioned, Enigma Machine is arguably 'heavier' than The Enemy Inside. And the other songs on DT12 seem to represent multiple DT styles.

Considering all that though, it still feels like another 'hard rocker' (for lack of better simple description) would've been nice on DT12 but that's just me. There's more than enough content in the other songs to be happy and I can't expect DT to tred the same ground twice just for the sake of it, but all the songs mentioned at the beginning of this post, I think DT need to make more in the style of.

They're really good at making these songs, but I always think they hold back and only write about 1 every album cycle, trying and stick to their proggy roots which tends to lean away from these 'harder' songs. BUT it absolutely doesn't have to.

Then again they're also good doing 'epicly big' sounding songs, but still structured to a formula (like The Bigger Picture, which for serious lack of a better word is almost a ballad, but it's too HUGE to be considered as such in the traditional sense). And they've been pulling that off pretty well lately (Breaking All Illusions/Bridges In The Sky/Behind The Veil etc.)

[jakepriest]

I think the production on FII and Octavarium is a little to bright, to the point of feeling cold. The problem mostly lies in the drums on the former and the vocals on the latter.

On the other end, we have ToT, with way too much guitar gain, too much pig and synthy string sound, and a muddy drum mix that could only be topped by ADToE.

The drums on both Octavarium and ToT sound amazing. ToT has some of Rudess's best synth sounds and I think the heavy riffs required the gain. No idea what you're going on about.

[Lucidity]

I think the production on FII and Octavarium is a little to bright, to the point of feeling cold. The problem mostly lies in the drums on the former and the vocals on the latter.

On the other end, we have ToT, with way too much guitar gain, too much pig and synthy string sound, and a muddy drum mix that could only be topped by ADToE.

The drums on both Octavarium and ToT sound amazing. ToT has some of Rudess's best synth sounds and I think the heavy riffs required the gain. No idea what you're going on about.

I agree; I've never noticed any problems with these things. I've always thought that the drums on ToT were distinctly high quality relative to the rest of DT's catalog.

[Grizz]

My main beef with ToT's sound is that one of the trashy cymbals that MP frequently rides on is mixed to be low and inarticulate.

[red barchetta]

Something that bugs me a bit is that I find it difficult to know what song or album people are talking about on the forum using abreviation.  I mean, unless you know the band totally by heart, there is no way that it clicks as soon as you read something with abreviation.  It takes more time to write the whole word but it is easier to understand and mostly appreciated.