Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Grizz]

It's a new level of pop-tart shallow when DT fans dismiss the music simply because of the names of some fictional characters.

hurr everyone who don't like da stonishing is shallow

Many things about The Astonishing have contributed to my distaste for it. Probably the first one I noticed was the story itself. The cheesy character names are not the issue but they're pretty emblematic of a lot of its problems.

[Zook]

Remember back in the day when someone posted alternate "non-cheesy" lyrics to The Count of Tuscany? Remember how terrible they were? Sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed.

[Setlist Scotty]

I have to say that, in my opinion, The Astonishing  is their most mature, musically diverse and interesting album, and has every member on their musical prime.

I would question how "musically diverse" it is. One of the problems I have with TA is the fact that so many of the songs seem to start off as piano-based ballads. Besides there being too much dialog between characters, I would say a lack of musical diversity is a big reason why the album ranks lowest in their catalog for me. Many of their other albums are more musically diverse, IMO.

On the bigger picture (pun intended) it may seem that the songs are similar to each other, but the arrangements/instrumentation makes it really diverse, in my opinion. On the top of my head, you have the Tango section on Lord Nafaryus, the Jazz+blast bears section in Three Days, the bagpipes on The X Aspect, the instrumental section on A New Beginning (including the Satriani tribute), the straightforward Metal of Moment Of Betrayal, the mandolin on Hymn Of Thousand voices, the Rock anthem nature of Our New World, the '70s Prog intro on A Life Left Behind...

The only other really diverse album I can think of is SDOIT, which is the most "Proggy" borderline experimental one.

Honestly I'm trying to think what is more musically diverse. Maybe 8V, but overall, that album stinks. Systematic Chaos? Maybe, but for some reason, that album is universally panned. Train Of Thought? No way!

There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

[Volante99]

It's a new level of pop-tart shallow when DT fans dismiss the music simply because of the names of some fictional characters.

hurr everyone who don't like da stonishing is shallow

Many things about The Astonishing have contributed to my distaste for it. Probably the first one I noticed was the story itself. The cheesy character names are not the issue but they're pretty emblematic of a lot of its problems.

Exactly.

Let me clarify; my problem is less with the character names and story. All of that could be forgiven. It's more just the extreme bloat of the album that I take issue with and it's even more frustrating because there is some EXCELLENT music buried in all of it. Had they shown just a tad bit of restraint...

THAT'S the main reason why I wouldn't call it "mature"...although the plot and character names certainly don't help matters.

I WILL give credit where credit is due; the Astonishing concert was a really enjoyable experience. Listening to the album front to back? Not so much.

[Ninjabait]

Remember back in the day when someone posted alternate "non-cheesy" lyrics to The Count of Tuscany? Remember how terrible they were? Sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed.

I don't think the lyrics are really the problem with The Count of Tuscany. It's mostly the presentation of them. If they were sung normally, the lyrics would be set the tone quite nicely for the song and continue to tell the story. But when you're growling "All the finest wines improve with age" and "A bearded gentleman...historian" it just sounds weird because there's a total disconnect between the music and the lyrics. Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember I think.

Honestly, without the growls, Count of Tuscany would easily be Top 5 DT. I still think it's one of their best songs in spite of the growls.

I do agree that sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed. But what's cheesy for one person is cool for another. For me personally, two examples are the "now I can finally reveal how music makes me feel" part of A New Beginning and "Doom. Gloom. The world goes boom." part of Everybody Dies by Ayreon. I LOVE those parts and they're two bits that just make me totally happy because I think they're so cool. But I acknowledge that the general opinion I've seen is that they're dripping with cheese.

[TAC]

Wait...there are growls in The Count Of Tuscany?? WHERE??


The Count Of Tuscany is amazing and there is nothing wrong with the lyrics.

[gzarruk]

Remember back in the day when someone posted alternate "non-cheesy" lyrics to The Count of Tuscany? Remember how terrible they were? Sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed.

I don't think the lyrics are really the problem with The Count of Tuscany. It's mostly the presentation of them. If they were sung normally, the lyrics would be set the tone quite nicely for the song and continue to tell the story. But when you're growling "All the finest wines improve with age" and "A bearded gentleman...historian" it just sounds weird because there's a total disconnect between the music and the lyrics. Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember I think.

Honestly, without the growls, Count of Tuscany would easily be Top 5 DT. I still think it's one of their best songs in spite of the growls.

TL;DR everything would've been better without MP vocals (or at least his last couple albums with DT)

[Ninjabait]

Well, I double checked and growls is not the right word, my mistake. I'm not sure what to call that style of vocals, but it's that uniquely metal sound that is harsher than normal sung vocals. Kinda like vocal fry but different.

My point still stands tho, and if they just had LaBrie sing those normally without the weird metal vocal affect then it would be totally fine.

[TAC]

I think MP's background vocals are just fine.

[Cool Chris]

Most of the TCoT lyrics are lame, and the way many of them are sung doesn't help. For whatever reason I did enjoy the song much more when I saw them do it live in 2011(?) and James did the vocals in a more pleasing way to my ear.

I think MP's background vocals are just fine.

Gonna pick on you for a sec here, but this has been on my mind for a while. While MP's vocals may be "just fine" I think many people have a problem with them (or maybe I speak only for myself) in that the bar is so high for DT's abilities that nothing should pass for "just fine." The band has one of the legendary vocalists in the genre for the past ~30 years, and when another band member's contributions to the vocals is "just fine" it lessens the high quality musicianship the band creates as a whole.

[The Walrus]

There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

I think this is an odd take. While those albums do cover various styles they're all still safely within the realms of metal and prog metal. The Astonishing objectively takes more risks and does things that are literally quite new for the band to play. Name me a single other DT album that has a country-esque toe tapper, a tango section, jazzbeats, prog metal shredding, piano-guitar ballads, a tribute to Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Ayreon-esque machine interludes, two overtures, and a commercial radio-friendly rocker. I just do not see an argument that paints any other album as being more diverse than TA. Six Degrees comes close, but even then, it's not even a fight.

[gzarruk]

There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

I think this is an odd take. While those albums do cover various styles they're all still safely within the realms of metal and prog metal. The Astonishing objectively takes more risks and does things that are literally quite new for the band to play. Name me a single other DT album that has a country-esque toe tapper, a tango section, jazzbeats, prog metal shredding, piano-guitar ballads, a tribute to Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Ayreon-esque machine interludes, two overtures, and a commercial radio-friendly rocker. I just do not see an argument that paints any other album as being more diverse than TA. Six Degrees comes close, but even then, it's not even a fight.

Nailed it

[PetFish]

Exactly.

Let me clarify; my problem is less with the character names and story. All of that could be forgiven. It's more just the extreme bloat of the album that I take issue with and it's even more frustrating because there is some EXCELLENT music buried in all of it. Had they shown just a tad bit of restraint...

THAT'S the main reason why I wouldn't call it "mature"...although the plot and character names certainly don't help matters.

I WILL give credit where credit is due; the Astonishing concert was a really enjoyable experience. Listening to the album front to back? Not so much.

       

[Setlist Scotty]

There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

I think this is an odd take. While those albums do cover various styles they're all still safely within the realms of metal and prog metal. The Astonishing objectively takes more risks and does things that are literally quite new for the band to play. Name me a single other DT album that has a country-esque toe tapper, a tango section, jazzbeats, prog metal shredding, piano-guitar ballads, a tribute to Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Ayreon-esque machine interludes, two overtures, and a commercial radio-friendly rocker. I just do not see an argument that paints any other album as being more diverse than TA. Six Degrees comes close, but even then, it's not even a fight.

Here's the thing - I won't argue that TA has a bunch of elements that *briefly* appear throughout the album that are different than what they've done before. But that to me doesn't equate to musically diverse when the album is full of 4 minute-ish songs that are ballad heavy with breathy vocals and only occasional sprinklings of heavy parts, proggy parts and the few unusual things previously mentioned. A musically diverse has nothing to do with doing stuff outside of what has been done previously on other albums - it's what different sorts of sounds and styles are being done within the album itself. So I will repeat that to my ears, those 4 albums I cited are far more musically diverse than TA. Is TA the most unusual of DT's catalog? Absolutely. But that doesn't automatically mean it's more diverse.

And while I might agree that those 4 albums might still fit the "prog metal" label more than any other due purely to the fact that more than 50% of the material does fit that label, there's still plenty of other material on each that certainly doesn't.

[The Walrus]

" it's what different sorts of sounds and styles are being done within the album itself."

Respectfully, Scotty, that's the exact same argument I used for The Astonishing. But apparently the elements are not present long enough? Odd take and I think that's objectively incorrect in this context but you do you.  I just don't see how you can invalidate what's present because of how you perceive the rest of the album? Not very logical.

"A musically diverse has nothing to do with doing stuff outside of what has been done previously on other albums"

I didn't say it did, but rather, I mentioned all that stuff to point out that this is objectively the most diverse Dream Theater album. I think if we put any 2 DT albums side by side and objectively analyzed what is going on, TA would come out on top as having the most stuffed into its discs.

[Ben_Jamin]

First off, for some odd reason, I never listened to The Majesty Demos (actually listening to it, a friend usually had it on in the background).

Upon hearing A'Vision, it's a real shame that they never continued to play this gem. It's a really good song, and honestly would sound amazing being played live. Maybe one day, on the last final tour, or the last final show w/ all previous members (whom are willing) joining on stage.

[Setlist Scotty]

" it's what different sorts of sounds and styles are being done within the album itself."

Respectfully, Scotty, that's the exact same argument I used for The Astonishing. But apparently the elements are not present long enough? Odd take and I think that's objectively incorrect in this context but you do you.  I just don't see how you can invalidate what's present because of how you perceive the rest of the album? Not very logical.

"A musically diverse has nothing to do with doing stuff outside of what has been done previously on other albums"

I didn't say it did, but rather, I mentioned all that stuff to point out that this is objectively the most diverse Dream Theater album. I think if we put any 2 DT albums side by side and objectively analyzed what is going on, TA would come out on top as having the most stuffed into its discs.

In a nutshell, yeah, those elements aren't significant enough to stand out. It's not like we're seeing a few or more songs that contain a bunch of tango inspired sections, multiple appearances of bagpipes throughout, JP shredding away several times, etc. The NOMAC tracks are probably the one thing that I would say are significant enough.

From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

[The Walrus]

But that comparison doesn't even work because those are nowhere near death metal vocals. I'm also not calling TA a particular genre, which you are in that example. It does not matter how long the elements are present - they are present, and a part of the music, you don't just skip past those when you play the song do you? By the logic you just laid out, the diversity only matters if it occurs multiple times. Twice? Three times? A certain length of time? It's all arbitrary to you, which is okay to an extent, but if we're talking about something that's objectively measurable - the diverse elements present on a recorded work - then you can't really deny that The Astonishing fundamentally has more going on.

You use Awake as another example, saying that you can't say Awake is full of samples just because 3 songs use them. That is correct. That is measurable. You can do the exact same with The Astonishing and tally up all the various, different musical elements present with Awake and I guarantee you there's more thrown into the mix on The Astonishing. I'm not saying "The Astonishing is a tango album" because there's a brief tango section in one song. I am however saying it is an album with more musical styles than any of their other albums. You can measure that.

(All this to say that at the end of the day this is a very minor conversation point, but it's fun to pursue. )

[TAC]

The Astonishing belongs to the "Awesome" genre. 

[Setlist Scotty]

But that comparison doesn't even work because those are nowhere near death metal vocals.

Hence why I put it in "quotes" and referred to the vocals as angry, not death metal.   

 

By the logic you just laid out, the diversity only matters if it occurs multiple times. Twice? Three times? A certain length of time? It's all arbitrary to you, which is okay to an extent, but if we're talking about something that's objectively measurable - the diverse elements present on a recorded work - then you can't really deny that The Astonishing fundamentally has more going on.

Again, if the elements are significant enough. If they last just a matter of seconds, IMO they don't really count. They are minor additions added once and last for so little time, which is why they measure as "zero" to me, especially on an album as long as TA is. Did the band dip their toes into some new musical territory? Sure. But they didn't even wade in, much less dive in with them, especially in comparison to what we've seen on them introducing other elements on previous albums. This is why I personally don't think those elements count. Feel free to disagree - this is the "controversial opinions" thread, after all. 

(All this to say that at the end of the day this is a very minor conversation point, but it's fun to pursue. )

Agreed. Arguing for argument's sake.   

[The Walrus]

But that's like saying there isn't any children's choir on Nightwish's Imaginaerum album because they're only used sparingly in one song (maybe two? I forget). The wide range of styles and sounds is present, therefore they're part of the diversity of the album's sound... I don't understand that logic of yours but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[gzarruk]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

[54_diplomats]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

It's a bit too long but I agree. I think it's underrated.

[Herrick]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?

[gzarruk]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?

Don't Look Past Me and To Live Forever. Surrounded and AD were written later and ended up replacing the other two in what would become IAW.

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

It's a bit too long but I agree. I think it's underrated.

It doesn't even feel long to me

[The Walrus]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

It's a bit too long but I agree. I think it's underrated.

Ministry is my favorite song on Systematic Chaos. 

[IDontNotDoThings]

I agree. TMOLS gets too much flack. It's a beautiful song and one of my favourites on the album.


Anyway, here's another controversial opinion: ADTOE is my least favourite of the MM-era albums. There's just too much time dedicated to songs I actively dislike for it to be an enjoyable listening experience for me (those songs being BMUBMD, Outcry, and BTS).

[ReaperKK]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

I agree with both points. To add I don't think Surrounded is a good song at all, it's probably the low point of I&W.

[Setlist Scotty]

Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?

Herrick needs to learn DT acronyms better!   

TMOLS = The Ministry of Lost Souls
DLPM = Don't Look Past Me
TLF = To Live Forever

[Lethean]

I struggle with acronyms too.   I've seen TMOLS enough that I know it, but there are plenty of others where it takes me a bit to work it out. 

[jammindude]

And then there's some of us who see DT songs in licence plates.   TGP is a prefix I see in our state from time to time.   Always makes me think of The Glass Prison.

[KevShmev]

From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

[Ben_Jamin]

From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album, but I love it as well. Its a nice contrast as I enjoy DT's soft ballad moments and songs. It has neat sections.

It's diverse in how those moments stray from DT's usual genres they do. Like the Jazz blastbeats, and the Rap section in TPTD.

[Max Kuehnau]

From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album, but I love it as well. Its a nice contrast as I enjoy DT's soft ballad moments and songs. It has neat sections.

It's diverse in how those moments stray from DT's usual genres they do. Like the Jazz blastbeats, and the Rap section in TPTD.

and Lord Nafaryus largely being a tango. Lord Nafaryus and 3 Days are among my favourites on TA btw. (and this is what I've always found funny, who would introduce a villain with a tango piece of all things ? And the dixieland blastbeat section is great too. (and the shifting polyrhythms in My Last Farewell as well IMHO.) Then again, Nafaryus isn't a credible villain because of his pieces and because he makes me laugh so much (as opposed to Darth Vader as an example.)

[Ben_Jamin]

From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album, but I love it as well. Its a nice contrast as I enjoy DT's soft ballad moments and songs. It has neat sections.

It's diverse in how those moments stray from DT's usual genres they do. Like the Jazz blastbeats, and the Rap section in TPTD.

and Lord Nafaryus largely being a tango. Lord Nafaryus and 3 Days are among my favourites on TA btw. (and this is what I've always found funny, who would introduce a villain with a tango piece of all things ? And the dixieland blastbeat section is great too. (and the shifting polyrhythms in My Last Farewell as well IMHO.) Then again, Nafaryus isn't a credible villain because of his pieces and because he makes me laugh so much (as opposed to Darth Vader as an example.)

I wouldn't have considered him a villain. He is just a Nefarious king whom felt threatened of his reign.

The Astonishing is about how strong Music is, hence how the NOMACS killed Evangeline.