MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."

[nikatapi]

Right, but while he didn't do it this time, he can sometimes word things in a way that make it seem like he did it all.  I remember him talking once about how he played the demo of The Best of Times (with him singing) at his father's funeral, which is a very touching thing, and added that it was a song that he wrote, but when you say, "a song that I wrote," the implication is that you wrote the music and the lyrics. 

To go back to rumborak's point, I've always found that a bizarre character trait of Mike Portnoy's.  Yes, he did a shit ton of stuff for the band over the years, and he was gonna damn sure let us all know that he did it all.  It's like if you are an actor who is always helping out various charities, yet feels the need to constantly publicize it: the satisfaction is in actually doing it, not in shouting to the world that you are doing it.  He would justify it as setting the facts straight, like if some fans online suggested that others might have done this or that, but it far too often came across as chest-pounding.

Yeah this seems to be a common misconception, i mean Tate is an asshole, but at least he wrote music and lyrics. Mike definitely was behind the concept and the lyrics, but his musical contributions were mostly structure suggestions, it's not like he composed the music, added riffs etc. I'm sure he wrote most of the vocal melodies though, which is a contibution, but it's not writing a song.

He has a point as far as the concept is concerned, but overall i think it would be unfair for him to want to have sole performing rights for the 12SS, since the music was written mainly by JP and JR. Not that DT would play the whole suit live, but as a thought it seems kind of silly.

[rumborak]

It's the same reason why big dogs bark far less than small dogs. They don't need to, their authority is tacitly understood.

It sounds dumb, but the fact there was zero power struggle within the band after MP left says a lot.

It's also not exactly conjecture. Paul Northfield in that recent interview laid it plain out: JP is the songwriting heavyweight in the band, with JR and MP maybe of equal but far lesser impact. As Northfield pointed out, MP has vast musical knowledge, but in the end he's not gonna write the riffs or chord progressions or solos. His influence was inevitably at the "maybe we should switch around A and B" level, and likely rhythm stuff.

[puppyonacid]

I get that same impression regarding JP. I've always kinda figured he was and is the main music writer. I know JR will contribute with progressions and arrangements as does JM (there are some kickass DT riffs that were JMs idea) but I get the feeling most songs germinate with JP.

I've often wondered if that's why we're not seeing another solo album from him anytime soon. He may not feel the need on an artistic level as he must be pretty satisfied on a creative level with his output from DT.

I've never subscribed to the idea that a lyricist is credited as a "songwriter". Painstakingly constructing an 8 minute piece of music that is harmonically, rhythmically and melodically interesting is  a bit trickier than penning lyrics to a finished article.

I could write 10sets of lyrics to 10 pre-set pieces of music a lot quicker than writing that music in the first place. And lets face it, the music in DT would be just as interesting regardless of the lyrical content.

[?]

Right, but while he didn't do it this time, he can sometimes word things in a way that make it seem like he did it all.  I remember him talking once about how he played the demo of The Best of Times (with him singing) at his father's funeral, which is a very touching thing, and added that it was a song that he wrote, but when you say, "a song that I wrote," the implication is that you wrote the music and the lyrics. 

To go back to rumborak's point, I've always found that a bizarre character trait of Mike Portnoy's.  Yes, he did a shit ton of stuff for the band over the years, and he was gonna damn sure let us all know that he did it all.  It's like if you are an actor who is always helping out various charities, yet feels the need to constantly publicize it: the satisfaction is in actually doing it, not in shouting to the world that you are doing it.  He would justify it as setting the facts straight, like if some fans online suggested that others might have done this or that, but it far too often came across as chest-pounding.

Yeah this seems to be a common misconception, i mean Tate is an asshole, but at least he wrote music and lyrics.

Actually, Queensryche members have pointed out that Tate never wrote any music, just lyrics. At least MP never claimed he wrote 81% of DT's music!

[theseoafs]

This is a good prediction, particularly A) the next tour isn't evening with

Who said that? James said he likes this format more than touring with a support band, so I could see them continuing that way.

Sorry, I was typing on mobile and fucked that up.  That should read "particularly if the next tour IS evening with", which I realize is the opposite of what I said.

[IdoSC]

It seems like he's seriously considering to claim the rights on these songs and honestly, if he's gonna do that, he's completely dead to me by now. Sorry for sounding like a hater, but it was his fault for leaving the band, it was his damn decision, and he's been trying to go all Roger Waters/Geoff Tate about it since as if he wants it to be a "milestone" in the band's career. But he's not either of these people, DT is not either of these bands, and the fans are definitely not the same. We don't need nor do we want an ugly breakup, is it so bad if both sides are allowed to play every song on their own?

[IdoSC]

The problem is that TGP is a fan favourite

If The Shattered Fortress was played, I really think The Glass Prison will make a legendary return SOMEDAY SOOOOOOOOOOON.

Fixed.

(had to )

[KevShmev]

Well, I doubt most fans consider the 12SS one of the band's true milestones, and it certainly doesn't compare to how The Wall is to Floyd and Mindcrime is to Queensryche.  It's a personal milestone of Mike Portnoy alone, which is why he has such an attachment to it.  You can't blame him for that, if nothing else.

[TAC]

No, you can't blame him for that.

[hefdaddy42]

It seems like he's seriously considering to claim the rights on these songs

No it doesn't.

[rumborak]

I think MP is smart enough to know he would never get them. So no, he's not considering it.

And yeah, the comparison with The Wall falls apart from the simple fact that The Wall is one of the most iconic albums of all time. If The Wall is the main concert, the AAA suite is the guy handing out fliers right after the highway exit to the venue.

[theseoafs]

the AAA suite

Hello, rearview mirror, so glad to see you my friend...

[Sycsa]

The Wall is one of the most iconic albums of all time.

That's not really saying much though and it's just one step away from making the fallacious popular=good argument. I'm a classic prog guy and I like The Wall, but in terms of how much I enjoy it (the only really important criteria when evaluating music), it doesn't come close neither to the AA suite, nor to Floyd's earlier output. That bass does sound nice though. In terms of popularity, you're dead on that it's a bad comparison as MP couldn't make a living off the AA suite.

[TAC]

The Wall is one of the most iconic albums of all time.

That's not really saying much though and it's just one step away from making the fallacious popular=good argument. I'm a classic prog guy and I like The Wall, but in terms of how much I enjoy it (the only really important criteria when evaluating music), it doesn't come close neither to the AA suite, nor to Floyd's earlier output. That bass does sound nice though.

Huh?

I don't care for it either but that doesn't make it any less iconic.

[Grizz]

"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

The problem is that TGP is a fan favourite

If The Shattered Fortress was played, I really think The Glass Prison will make a legendary return SOMEDAY SOOOOOOOOOOON.

Fixed.

(had to )

the AAA suite

Hello, rearview mirror, so glad to see you my friend...

This thread might be better than Psychosane exercises.

[rumborak]

Yeah, Sycsa, your own personal enjoyment of the albums in question is rather irrelevant. The Wall was the pinnacle of Pink Floyd's career, and it's voted #87 in Rolling Stone's 500 Best Albums of All Time.
The only even marginal comparison would be if MP wanted to have the rights to IAW or SFAM. DT no longer being able to to perform songs from either of those albums would be a monumental blow. Whereas the 12SS, other than TGP it would probably be met with a "bummer. Oh well." by DT.

[MoraWintersoul]

the AAA suite

Hello, rearview mirror, so glad to see you my friend...

fuck ahahahahhahahahah

[rumborak]

The Shattered Bumpers

[Madman Shepherd]

It's the same reason why big dogs bark far less than small dogs. They don't need to, their authority is tacitly understood.

It sounds dumb, but the fact there was zero power struggle within the band after MP left says a lot.

It's also not exactly conjecture. Paul Northfield in that recent interview laid it plain out: JP is the songwriting heavyweight in the band, with JR and MP maybe of equal but far lesser impact. As Northfield pointed out, MP has vast musical knowledge, but in the end he's not gonna write the riffs or chord progressions or solos. His influence was inevitably at the "maybe we should switch around A and B" level, and likely rhythm stuff.

Which is why I always thought it was a bit much when people referred to MP as taking care of the arrangement.  Sure he did do a lot of that but JP seems to be very much the guy in charge and if he felt strongly about something, I think he would probably get his way being that he was the main songwriter.  When it came to the concepts, JP was more willing to let Mike drive the ship behind stuff like the AA Suite and the whole 5/8 stuff.  (Of course, I think the SFAM concept was more Petrucci's with strong input by MP).

I think the band in its current state is more centrally driven by JP but also more open to input by the other guys.  When things don't go their way I think they are more satisfied that it is for the right reasons.  for instance, JLB apparently submitted at least three different lyrics for ADTOE but only one was chosen.  His only response when asked (this was in a foreign country and I never did get to see the full interview)  was, "I'm not sure why they weren't chosen" but he didn't seem bitter at all.  Just sorta like, "He, if thats the worst thing about this album then I can't get too upset"

[Madman Shepherd]

the AAA suite

Hello, rearview mirror, so glad to see you my friend...

fuck ahahahahhahahahah

The Shattered Bumpers

This Dying Battery

The Route of All Evil

[Grizz]

The Shattered Bumpers

It's DT's nice way of saying "prepare your anus, we're going in dry."

[Rodni Demental]

Just one or two points (or ten  ) regarding the subject of this topic. Although I'll start with saying, all of these guys had contributions to the songs, they have split writing credit for almost all of the music, and the lyrics seem to be credited above the composition, although I'm not sure if that's intentional or related to the perspective of MP/JP/ The rest of DT about the significance of lyric credits. In any case, it's clear that all the members have music contributions that we can only speculate when it comes down to who gave more input to which song.  So it seems obvious that no one member should have any particular claim over any one song. In fact there are only 2 examples (maybe 3?) that even have single writing credits, and I think it's The Silent Man and Beneath The Surface (and Space Dye Vest). But, I still don't see how JR didn't contribute to the music composition in BTS because there's string movements and a keyboard solo..

But I mostly wanted to say; I think some of you guys are understating the relevance of the drum patterns in the composition. It's something Nearl Peart said that left an impression on me, and it's something I am inclined to agree with, I wouldn't quote me directly, but it was along the lines of: Drums are usually the subject of rock music, they don't have to be, but more often than not, the drums are the key ingredient and basis for the progression and movement of the song. Also, we practically universally use the subject of the kick and the snare to define and separate aspects of the music, and the cymbalwork is the glue that holds the focal points of that rhythm together. Lyrics are another rhythmic aspect of the music, because the structure and annunciation of the word is what determines which beats are emphasised by the phrasing of the lyrics. This shows that lyrics play an integral role in the rhythm and structure of a song, equally as much as they determine the lead melody (which is what we normally assume as the primary role of vocals).

It seems that as a drummer and a lyricist he's established a very profound understanding of the relationship between these functions in music composition and he could describe this idea far more elegantly than my attempt. But part of my point is, a bunch of you guys seem to be discounting drums from the composition to a certain extent. I mean a drummer doesn't (traditionally) write chord progressions or melodies based on scales, but they do determine the mood and lay a basis for other subjects within the music to fit. Also, a drummer is normally more aware of the arrangement of a piece than anyone else because their sections are based on differing phrases of bars for each section or movement. Melodic instruments and singers have phrasing too, but to different effect, and normally with the drumming as a basis or foundation. And some of the motifs and progressions made by JR/JP wouldn't have been generated without the drumbeat that gave them the foundation for some of those ideas. I'm obviously assuming that they write as a group and so the would have bounced ideas off of each other like this. Of course not to say that any one individual member couldn't have come up with an idea on their own and tried to integrate it into the compositions, but I'm betting that most of the time the ideas are spontaneous, and naturally form and grow from each others ideas.

Which leads me to:

I've never subscribed to the idea that a lyricist is credited as a "songwriter". Painstakingly constructing an 8 minute piece of music that is harmonically, rhythmically and melodically interesting is  a bit trickier than penning lyrics to a finished article.

I could write 10sets of lyrics to 10 pre-set pieces of music a lot quicker than writing that music in the first place. And lets face it, the music in DT would be just as interesting regardless of the lyrical content.

I would argue the opposite here mostly from amateur experience. But it's an example of how different strokes work for different folks I guess. But I would write 10 pieces of music well before I had 10 sets of lyrics to go with them. Lyrics are painstakingly difficult for me to come up with (if I don't want them to seem fake and I want them to come from a sincere and honest place) but I could hop on my keyboard and bust out some progressions and have something resembling a 'song' well before I could even consider what it could be about lyrically.

Pretty much, the end results the same because as far as this discussion goes, I don't think any one person should have more right to any one DT song than any other current/ex member. I do however think that during this discussion, that more credit should be recognised for the drum patterns and lyrics as these elements are absolutely crucial in defining the musical and lyrical subject of a song yet often dismissed or taken for granted. I'm not even a drummer, and funnily enough (along with lyrics), drum patterns are the hardest part of a song for me to create personally, but I don't see how it's any less important or relevant in the composition of the music. Not to mention, as DT fans, we take expert level drumming for granted to the point where the only thing to complain about with MM is the production of his sound. But I tell ya what, if Dream Theater pulled an Avenged Severfold with their new drummer, we'd be complaining about something quite different as they've completely simplified the 'subject' of their drumming with the new album.

[Dream Team]

Nice post ^. MP's genius behind the kit is a BIG aspect of the appeal of the classic DT songs.

[Sycsa]

Yeah, Sycsa, your own personal enjoyment of the albums in question is rather irrelevant. The Wall was the pinnacle of Pink Floyd's career, and it's voted #87 in Rolling Stone's 500 Best Albums of All Time.
The only even marginal comparison would be if MP wanted to have the rights to IAW or SFAM. DT no longer being able to to perform songs from either of those albums would be a monumental blow. Whereas the 12SS, other than TGP it would probably be met with a "bummer. Oh well." by DT.

You missed my point here, or else you wouldn't be backing up your arguments with the Rolling Stone magazine. I never questioned the monumental impact of The Wall, I just said that it's not a good argument to belittle the 12SS based on relative popularity alone. Also, The Dark Side of the Moon sold better, so I wouldn't call The Wall the unquestionable pinnacle of PF's career (although it does win the sales game if you double its sales as they do it for double albums, which isn't a good way to measure relative popularity). 

[lithium112]

<post>

Excellent post. Would agree with again.

[RoeDent]

That makes me hopeful for finally seeing MTHIDDRITSS live!

Sorry, but what on earth is that?! 

[Scorpion]

Mike Thinks He's Dee Dee Ramone Introducing a Song Song.

Compositional masterpice, I tell you.

[rumborak]

Props to you Scorpion for actually decoding that

And yes, masterpiece.

[wasteland]

Mike Thinks He's Dee Dee Ramone Introducing a Song Song.

Compositional masterpice, I tell you.

I used to quote this song before it was cool 

[kirksnosehair]

I do think John Petrucci has been and will always be Dream Theater's key element. There can be Dream Theater without Mike Portnoy, but there can't be Dream Theater without John Petrucci.

All you have to do is listen to Petrucci's solo album or even LTE and you can hear his stamp, which is all over everything Dream Theater has ever released.  I agree that Dream Theater can exist and continue largely unscathed without Portnoy, but the loss of Petrucci would mark the end of Dream Theater as we know it.  At least as far as any new material they released after such a huge change. 


I don't see that happening anytime soon, though.

[tiagodon]

Side question: is Mike Mangini capable of composing a piece like that?

[Scorpion]

Props to you Scorpion for actually decoding that

And yes, masterpiece.

Eh, there's only so many DT songs with more than 5 words...

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

<post>

Excellent post (2)

I very much agree with you on the matter of writing lyrics. I'm terribly picky about the words I use (I rephrase an essay about 6 times  ), so phrasing and annunciation that sound proper are extremely difficult for me to dream up. On the other hand, I've got probably 50 different lyrical themes floating around I could choose, it's just putting them to a rhythm.

I haven't done an extensive amount of this though. It's just for fun every now and then.

[rumborak]

Side question: is Mike Mangini capable of composing a piece like that?

I don't see why he couldn't, disregarding of course the fact that he probably would not want to.
I think people sometimes like to elevate the 12SS to this glorious magnum opus of Mike Portnoy, as if the whole thing was this grandiose thing that is the epitome of his artistic work. To qquote The Man himself: "Upon finishing the Suite in 2009, he reflected that he had "dug [himself] into a hole with it. It was a nice idea seven years ago... After a while it became like an obligation hanging over my head, like a homework assignment." He said that he "didn't know if [he] would have done it" if he knew how big the Suite was going to be: "If I had realized what I was getting myself into five albums ago... I think maybe I would have written one song that encompassed all twelve steps"

While there are good parts to the 12SS, it is so massively bloated and forcefully self-referential that I have no desire to see it live in its entirety.

[orcus116]

Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?