MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."

[TheGreatPretender]

As always, MP makes perfect sense. I could totally see it being heartbreaking if DT did the 12SS without him, but honestly, I think DT has too much character to do that anyway.

Too much character but more than that, practically zero interest I suspect...

Yeah, this. I'm really glad they're performing the songs individually though.

As for the subject at hand, I'm not a fan of the whole, "this is my baby and that's not my baby" crap. If a song was written and released by a band, then the song should belong to the band. Period. Which is why I think it's totally fair that they're playing Space-Dye Vest, even though it wasn't only KM's concept and his 'baby', but he wrote the whole thing from beginning to end. Which, I highly doubt MP wrote every note of the 12SS and came up with all the riffs all by himself.

The situation with Queensryche was different because Tate was actively battling for the retention of the Queensryche band name, so they were basically fighting for the ownership of the band, and giving him OMC and OMC2 was kind of like the consolation prize for not getting the rights to the band name Queensryche. It's a completely different situation than when someone leaves a band of their own accord, and the band still stays together and finds a replacement member. If the band says, "We want to stay together and continue recording, and we don't even want you to leave the band," and the member says, "Well, too bad, I'm leaving anyway," then I think they're in no position to say, "And I'm taking this song and that song with me, so you can't play them anymore, and I can." Which, granted, MP didn't do, but now he says he should have, and I think that would've been a dick move, if he did do it.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Honestly, even if MP were still in the band, I doubt the entire suite (in full length) would be performed in one night. That is asking a lot of your bandmates, not to mention the audience. Correct me if I am wrong, but there has not been overwhelming sustained interest to hear this thing in it's entirety in one night.

[rumborak]

Who knows how the other guys feel about the 12SS anyway. Keep in mind that for 5 straight albums they got roped into this thing, with a fifth of each album being consumed by it. If MP got tired of it by the end, I can only assume some of the others were even more so. I remember doing a big sigh of relief when BCSL came out, because that meant the 12SS was finally done with.

[BlobVanDam]

They've continued to play a song from the 12SS on each tour since MP left so far (TROAE , TSF), including one that hasn't been played before and not particularly popular. MP got tired of it because he had to come up with lyrical contributions that fitted a specific, narrow "step". Musically, I don't see that it would be any more tiring than writing any other song. If anything, it would be a bit easier, because you have a starting point already.

As you said, who knows how the other guys feel about the 12SS. I think some people just want to believe that DT don't much like it, when there's no real evidence for that.

[theseoafs]

MP got tired of it because he had to come up with lyrical contributions that fitted a specific, narrow "step". Musically, I don't see that it would be any more tiring than writing any other song. If anything, it would be a bit easier, because you have a starting point already.

Eh.  Remember Tom Sawyer:  work is whatever a body is obliged to do.  It may not have been super thrilling for the band to churn out all those reprises, rehash all those riffs, when other musical ideas may have seemed more interesting to them.  Of course, that would be pure speculation, because the only one who has talked about regretting the 12SS is MP himself.

I think some people just want to believe that DT don't much like it, when there's no real evidence for that.

Common theme on the forum these days.  "DT probably doesn't like the 12SS very much."  "DT thinks that Raw Dog sucks."  "DT probably hates You Not Me themselves."  Really, people just want to believe the band's musical taste is equivalent to their own.

[hefdaddy42]

Common theme on the forum these days.  "DT probably doesn't like the 12SS very much."  "DT thinks that Raw Dog sucks."  "DT probably hates You Not Me themselves."  Really, people just want to believe the band's musical taste is equivalent to their own.

I think there is more evidence for B and C there than there is for A (for which there is none).

[robwebster]

There's not really evidence for any of them, though, is there?

Arguably a bit of evidence for C, we know Mike Portnoy didn't like You Not Me (or You Or Me), but he's gone now - John Petrucci loved rewriting You Or Me, he learned loads from Desmond Child and was completely on board with the label's vision; he's historically been far more positive than the fanbase of the time were. Raw Dog, we don't really know anything about either way, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. They've not played it, but they've not been rotating setlists since they started, and it'd hardly be a priority - I think the idea of the band hating their own music is a bit of a message board fantasy.

[tiagodon]

There's not really evidence for any of them, though, is there?

Arguably a bit of evidence for C, we know Mike Portnoy didn't like You Not Me (or You Or Me), but he's gone now - John Petrucci loved rewriting You Or Me, he learned loads from Desmond Child and was completely on board with the label's vision; he's historically been far more positive than the fanbase of the time were. Raw Dog, we don't really know anything about either way, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. They've not played it, but they've not been rotating setlists since they started, and it'd hardly be a priority - I think the idea of the band hating their own music is a bit of a message board fantasy.

Well... I have a band. I've been playing with bands and doing some gigs for almost 8 years now. Sometimes I have to play and accept material brought by the other members of the band just because I'm in a band. It's like a marriage. You have to let go sometimes for the greater good. Yes, I have to play stuff I don't like. If we are 5 in a band, maybe 2 think that way and 3 like the material. I can't say "the band", as a whole, likes or dislikes this or that. For each DT song, it would be reasonable to assume that maybe at least one of them don't like the song.

[The Letter M]

There's not really evidence for any of them, though, is there?

Arguably a bit of evidence for C, we know Mike Portnoy didn't like You Not Me (or You Or Me), but he's gone now - John Petrucci loved rewriting You Or Me, he learned loads from Desmond Child and was completely on board with the label's vision; he's historically been far more positive than the fanbase of the time were. Raw Dog, we don't really know anything about either way, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. They've not played it, but they've not been rotating setlists since they started, and it'd hardly be a priority - I think the idea of the band hating their own music is a bit of a message board fantasy.

Well... I have a band. I've been playing with bands and doing some gigs for almost 8 years now. Sometimes I have to play and accept material brought by the other members of the band just because I'm in a band. It's like a marriage. You have to let go sometimes for the greater good. Yes, I have to play stuff I don't like. If we are 5 in a band, maybe 2 think that way and 3 like the material. I can't say "the band", as a whole, likes or dislikes this or that. For each DT song, it would be reasonable to assume that maybe at least one of them don't like the song.

You might lose some people if you use that analogy.

-Marc.

[robwebster]

There's not really evidence for any of them, though, is there?

Arguably a bit of evidence for C, we know Mike Portnoy didn't like You Not Me (or You Or Me), but he's gone now - John Petrucci loved rewriting You Or Me, he learned loads from Desmond Child and was completely on board with the label's vision; he's historically been far more positive than the fanbase of the time were. Raw Dog, we don't really know anything about either way, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. They've not played it, but they've not been rotating setlists since they started, and it'd hardly be a priority - I think the idea of the band hating their own music is a bit of a message board fantasy.

Well... I have a band. I've been playing with bands and doing some gigs for almost 8 years now. Sometimes I have to play and accept material brought by the other members of the band just because I'm in a band. It's like a marriage. You have to let go sometimes for the greater good. Yes, I have to play stuff I don't like. If we are 5 in a band, maybe 2 think that way and 3 like the material. I can't say "the band", as a whole, likes or dislikes this or that. For each DT song, it would be reasonable to assume that maybe at least one of them don't like the song.

Oh, yeah, it's reasonable to assume they're not hot on every song - James LaBrie doesn't like New Millennium. But there's this sort of thing where people project themselves onto the band members.

[KevShmev]

Perhaps, but the fact that the band hasn't played You Not Me on any tour since the FII tour (and they barely played it on that one) indicates that they probably don't think much of it, otherwise they would have played it by now, especially since it doesn't have an asterisk by it like Anna Lee did when Portnoy was in the band (since he considered it a Derek song) or like Space Dye Vest (same thing, but it being a Kevin song).

They've only toured twice since the release of Raw Dog, so time will tell if they like that enough to ever play it, but I'd be surprised.

[rumborak]

I am 99.5% sure Raw Dog will never be performed live.

[Scorpion]

If MP were still in the band, I could totally see the main riff or the solo section from Raw Dog making an appearance in Instrumedley 2.0, but since the guys currently in the band don't seem to be very big on medleys (I think JP once said that he doesn't like them? Or was it JLB? Not sure.), I think the odds of Raw Dog appearing in future sets are rather slim.

[robwebster]

Perhaps, but the fact that the band hasn't played You Not Me on any tour since the FII tour (and they barely played it on that one) indicates that they probably don't think much of it

Well! It indicates Mike Portnoy didn't think much of it... but, we already knew that. They haven't really played Hell's Kitchen, either, Mike preferred it in Burning My Soul - doesn't mean it's got a black mark with the current lineup.

Raw Dog wouldn't be much of a priority, tucked away onto some digital EP. Agree that it's unlikely to see live play, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're unsatisfied with how it came out.

[orcus116]

Most casual fans probably don't even know it exists.

[chaotic_ripper]

I'm sure the thing with YNM is that the band knows it's not real popular...so they don't play it.

[Invisible]

I've actually listened to the whole suite seven or eight times this year, and it would work wonderfully if they shortened some bits of The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul(the two more bloated ones) and the apology section of Repentance. Cut some bits and you have a killer 50 minutes epic, and I'm not even a metal fan. I always thought it was a very well done job, TROAE and Repentance provide a much needed breath of the heaviness before the big finale that is The Shattered Fortress, which only makes sense to me in the context of whole suite, the return of every part with an epic tweak has a great impact, alone by itself the song does feel like a medley and loses much of the drama. It's actually a masterwork, maybe better than A Change of Seasons(not as great as Octavarium and Six Degrees).

I think if done well, with a good stage production it can be a killer live. Too bad MP didn't stay to see it through, as they probably won't play it without him. It's one thing to play an individual song, but the whole thing does feel a little too much Portnoy to play it without him, even if it wouldn't be wrong. I always thought Roger Waters was a dick for what he did, even if The Wall was his idea. I know this is not the same, as Waters also wrote most of the music by himself, the ones he didn't he didn't win the exclusive rights for, namely Another Brick In The Wall Part II, Hey You, Comfortably Numb, Run Like Hell, and I think Young Lust(too lazy to look it up).

[Setlist Scotty]

As I said in another thread, I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit that if DT were to perform the whole 12 Step Suite, that it would come off much better than many people here imagine it would, just as TSF is much better live than many people here thought it would be, before they started performing it. That said, I can't imagine them doing the suite all the way thru unless at some future point MP were to rejoin them, and right now I can't see that happening.

[tiagodon]

DT is going to perform The 12 Step Suite on the first gig after the glorious return of Mr. Portnoy! God has spoken!

[JayOctavarium]

So they're never playing it? Good to know.

[Dublagent66]

Yeah, that's right around the same day hell freezes over.

[JayOctavarium]

lol




And the day Petrucci renounces his carnivorism.

[The Dark Master]

I think the band likes the songs in the 12SS just fine, they simply have no interesting in playing it live in it's entirety.  It's nearly an hour from start to finish, that is a huge chunk of concert time that could be spent playing material from a much wider selection of their cataloge with a much more dynamic variety (except for Repentance, all of the 12SS songs are lengthy balls to the wall prog metal shred-frests).  As has already been stated, since MP left they have played a song from the suite at most of their concerts, so I don't think anyone in the band has a problem with the songs.  It's just with MP gone, there really is no one in the band motivated to play the whole thing all at once.

As for Raw Dog, that was pretty much a throw-away track that they did for a promo EP for a video game (not even for the game itself).  If that never gets played life, it will most likely be because no one really cares about the song.  Hell, I would not be surprised if some of them forgot they even wrote and recorded Raw Dog.

[Rodni Demental]

I think an abridged version would have been the way to go. Turn it into something the length of Six Degrees then it's just a tiny bit more viable for a setlist. I mean, they're using chunks of set for selective/abridged parts of albums right now so it's not like it's necessarily the most impractical concept to play. I suppose it's a matter of one of the members actually desiring to make this happen, because I'm guessing MP would have been more the man to abridge the suite as he was the one originally arranging the pieces.

[JayOctavarium]

I still say just play The Glass Prison and The Shattered Fortress back to back... maybe with a few minutes of an overture of other 12SS riffs and what not either before TGP or in between the two.

[Cable]

My favorite transition is from Repentence to TSF. Although not the most natural, it sounds great. I cut the first 20 seconds of the instrumental TSF intro and placed it instead of the normal TSF, as the instrumental starts full volume instead of the fade in. It hits so hard after the more laid back ending of Repentence.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I am in 100% accord with  ^THIS ^

That was my first impression when I listened to TSF.

[Kotowboy]

DT is going to perform The 12 Step Suite on the first gig after the glorious return of Mr. Portnoy! God has spoken!

Some people still think he's coming back one day ?

[Super Dude]

Babies.

[BlueRoseOrchestra]

But I mostly wanted to say; I think some of you guys are understating the relevance of the drum patterns in the composition. It's something Nearl Peart said that left an impression on me, and it's something I am inclined to agree with, I wouldn't quote me directly, but it was along the lines of: [i]Drums are usually the subject of rock music, they don't have to be, but more often than not, the drums are the key ingredient and basis for the progression and movement of the song. Also, we practically universally use the subject of the kick and the snare to define and separate aspects of the music, and the cymbalwork is the glue that holds the focal points of that rhythm together. Lyrics are another rhythmic aspect of the music, because the structure and annunciation of the word is what determines which beats are emphasised by the phrasing of the lyrics. This shows that lyrics play an integral role in the rhythm and structure of a song, equally as much as they determine the lead melody (which is what we normally assume as the primary role of vocals). [/i]

it all boiled down to that the drums are only like the basic structures of songs. drums, rhythms or simply beats are the subject of music in general and not just rock in particular. the time signatures holds the music and keeps it in place. w/o the vital ingredients a series of time signature bars or drum sections are just hollow structures with no functions.  guitars, keyboards or even bass, can create main melodies, but drums serves to hold them in place. Mangini was clever enough to apply the complex patterns towards Petrucci and Rudess' melodies. as i recall Petrucci has said for the current album the members picked each song they feel close to for writing the lyrics which means the vocal melodies were already composed be4 lyrics were written, i dunno if thats correct to assume for all of their previous albums. James wrote quite a few lyrics for the songs but does that mean he wrote the vocal or main melodies of the songs?

It seems that as a drummer and a lyricist he's established a very profound understanding of the relationship between these functions in music composition and he could describe this idea far more elegantly than my attempt. But part of my point is, a bunch of you guys seem to be discounting drums from the composition to a certain extent. I mean a drummer doesn't (traditionally) write chord progressions or melodies based on scales, but they do determine the mood and lay a basis for other subjects within the music to fit. Also, a drummer is normally more aware of the arrangement of a piece than anyone else because their sections are based on differing phrases of bars for each section or movement. Melodic instruments and singers have phrasing too, but to different effect, and normally with the drumming as a basis or foundation. And some of the motifs and progressions made by JR/JP wouldn't have been generated without the drumbeat that gave them the foundation for some of those ideas. I'm obviously assuming that they write as a group and so the would have bounced ideas off of each other like this. Of course not to say that any one individual member couldn't have come up with an idea on their own and tried to integrate it into the compositions, but I'm betting that most of the time the ideas are spontaneous, and naturally form and grow from each others ideas.

i dont get the impression that anybody here is attempting or implying to discount Portnoy's input as a drummer and lyricist. each member excluding Myung has had their own side projects and even James composed the music on his solo albums. in all the projects Portnoy's involved, from Transatlantic, Flying Colors to the current Winery Dogs, the music were composed as a group similar to Dream Theater style. there isn't any evidence of him writing an entire piece all by himself or has done solo albums like Petrucci and Rudess. drumming as the foundation only provides the basic layout. and no doubt Portnoy developed and arranged it into complex patterns. but ADToE was still written w/o drum parts and was later programmed by Petrucci and then added inputs from Mangini.

[hefdaddy42]

Myung has had side projects, and AFAIK, JLB doesn't actually compose very much on his solo albums.

[BlueRoseOrchestra]

Myung has had side projects, and AFAIK, JLB doesn't actually compose very much on his solo albums.

yes i have completely put those behind my mind since they are not currently active.

[jmasterx]

2022 tour (20th anniversary of the first 12ss song) or 2019 tour (10th anniversary of finishing 12ss)  might seem appropriate to play it with Portnoy in a one off show.

[Ravenfoul]

2022 tour (20th anniversary of the first 12ss song) or 2019 tour (10th anniversary of finishing 12ss)  might seem appropriate to play it with Portnoy in a one off show.

Yeah, but aside from 'would they want to' would they even know or recognize those as actual things? In my mind I'm thinking probably no.

[rumborak]

I'd be rather surprised if DT was still around in 2022.