"Saved by the EPIC?"

[erwinrafael]

So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

Exactly. Without the diversity, it would sound like a Haken album. 

[The Letter M]

So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

Exactly. Without the diversity, it would sound like a Haken album. 

Psh, "Cockroach King" is PLENTY diverse! At least they're more diverse than latter-day Symphony X.

-Marc.

[erwinrafael]

So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

Exactly. Without the diversity, it would sound like a Haken album. 

Psh, "Cockroach King" is PLENTY diverse! At least they're more diverse than latter-day Symphony X.

-Marc.

True. Cockroach King is a breath of fresh air in The Mountain. I actually like Haken on a per song basis (Atlas Stone is amazing) but I find listening through a Haken album a chore because the songs keep on hitting the same notes, same themes. It lacks the balance of DT albums, like your point about the piano ballads actually making a good counterpoint to the epic songs. For DT, i almost always listen through full albums as they are very well constructed, with a good intro, a variety of heavy and softer songs, then a proper climax (usually a very long epic, or something like LtL, Scarred, or BAI). DT albums are constructed almost like a live set in the sequencing of songs, especially the Dream Theater album.

[Rodni Demental]

That's something I kinda take for granted with DT albums actually, they're normally a very "full" experience as opposed to just a collection of songs chucked on a CD to comprise an album. There's always variety and contrast, it seems like they really think about the "flow"of the album, and seems like they've consistently been doing 2 parts to their albums the whole time aswell. I generally listen to albums instead of just songs because I'm normally listening for long periods of time while doing other things, but there aren't too many bands where I can do the whole album experience (and enjoy all of it) because even with some of my top bands, they still have a bunch of filler or just samey songs where only a few of them will click with me. I don't wanna sound like I'm putting DT on a pedestal because there are some really well constructed albums out there but it's nice DT do care about the bigger picture regarding this sorta thing. (pun completely intended ) You get more replay value out of the album and even some of the songs that you might not otherwise deliberately listen to. Could even play a part in why many of us know every song the band has ever done. 

[hefdaddy42]

I think that Vacant is the best song on TOT.

[chaossystem]

A couple of problems need to be addressed here:

First of all, it looks like a lot of you missed the point of what I was trying to say.
I wasn't judging the four songs that I named, I was just saying that while I usually name one of the shorter songs as being my "favorite" from each album, it doesn't automatically mean that the shorter songs are better than the longer ones.
Regardless of style.

I wasn't judging those particular songs or the people who like them.
I was just citing them as examples of DT songs that I don't like.


The other issue is that I think I'm being accused of-or even branded as-a "hater" when it comes to DT's ballads.
In which case I submit to you the following-
Now I don't know if ALL of these songs qualify as ballads...

Another Day
Surrounded
Wait for Sleep
The Silent Man
Space-Dye Vest
I think I'm one of the few who thinks that the original and LiveTime "acoustic" versions of Hollow Years are as good as, or better than the Budokan "electric" version!
Also, the LiveTime version of Take Away My Pain
The Spirit Carries on
Solitary Shell
The Answer Lies Within (though I do prefer the Score version of this song)
Repentance
The instrumental version of Wither
This is the Life
Along for the Ride

...but I would hardly consider these songs to be "metal"
And at least most of them aren't really "prog" either.
But I can tell you the one thing that all of these songs DO have in common:

They are all songs that I like.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I think that Vacant is the best song on TOT.

[hefdaddy42]

First of all, it looks like a lot of you missed the point of what I was trying to say.

I don't think so.  It seemed pretty clear that this:

I was just citing them as examples of DT songs that I don't like.

was your point

The other issue is that I think I'm being accused of-or even branded as-a "hater" when it comes to DT's ballads.

I don't think that is an issue.  I haven't seen that phrase used by anyone.

[chaossystem]

In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."

Those are all great songs.

Unless by worst he means least awesome, in which case, they're still awesome.

Indeed. And looking at the songs mentioned, they're all softer ballads, mostly piano-driven with minimal instrumentation. Not what one would typically associate with Dream Theater's more progressive, heavy and complex metal side, but music like this is a great way for the band to flex their musical muscles. [I guess chaossystem just doesn't like songs like that from Dream Theater], but that being his personal taste, I think the general consensus regarding those songs (and those types of songs) within the DT catalog is generally positive.

-Marc.

This is what I meant.

Maybe nobody actually used words like "hate" or "hater," but that still seems like a broad statement.

Like saying that anyone who doesn't like those specific songs that I named-and there are a few others-doesn't like it when the band does that type of music at all.

[chaossystem]

 

That's something I kinda take for granted with DT albums actually, they're normally a very "full" experience as opposed to just a collection of songs chucked on a CD to comprise an album. There's always variety and contrast, it seems like they really think about the "flow"of the album, and seems like they've consistently been doing 2 parts to their albums the whole time aswell. I generally listen to albums instead of just songs because I'm normally listening for long periods of time while doing other things, but there aren't too many bands where I can do the whole album experience (and enjoy all of it) because even with some of my top bands, they still have a bunch of filler or just samey songs where only a few of them will click with me. I don't wanna sound like I'm putting DT on a pedestal because there are some really well constructed albums out there but it's nice DT do care about the bigger picture regarding this sorta thing. (pun completely intended ) You get more replay value out of the album and even some of the songs that you might not otherwise deliberately listen to. Could even play a part in why many of us know every song the band has ever done. 

I think a good way to answer the original question would be to say:
"Saved by the epic?"
No!

But..

Saved by the variety?
HELL yes!!!

In fact I HATE it when they are referred to as JUST a prog, metal or "prog-metal" band, when I know there is so much more TO them than that!

I also think that what I have been trying to say is that while I do love the variety, i'ts one of the things that makes Dream Theater one of the greatest bands ever, there are certain things, such as the ballads and the epics that are pretty much hit and miss with me, and I'm sure there are many others who see it the same way.

In other words, for every song like "The Answer lies within" or "Along for the Ride," which I think are as good as any of their earlier ballads, there are songs like "Beneath the Surface" and "Far From Heaven" that just don't DO anything for me.

Similarly there are are songs like "A Change of Seasons" and "Octavrium" that are absolute CLASSICS as far as I'm concerned, but there are other epics, such as "The Count of Tuscany" and "Illumination Theory" that, while good,to me they're a little weak, and  I just don't think they're AS good as what I KNOW the band is capable of.

The same can be said for a lot of the songs in the other categories as well. I don't know WHY I like "Lie" as an example, but don't much care for "The Mirror."
I guess it's just one of those things...


                                                                                             

[bosk1]

...for every song like "The Answer lies within" or "Along for the Ride," which I think are as good as any of their earlier ballads, there are songs like "Beneath the Surface" and "Far From Heaven" that just don't DO anything for me.

I'll just go off on this brief tangent to mention that, while I understand why you would put Along for the Ride in the same general category as those other songs, one of the things that is so fascinating to me about Along for the Ride is that it is really quite unique and different from other softer songs.

[chaossystem]

I don't know if you would consider Another Day to be a ballad, but if you go back and listen to it, the style of Along for the Ride is VERY similar.

However, I think the the one major difference in the keyboard sounds is due to the fact that the technology to makes those kinds of sounds didn't exist back then.

[bosk1]

I don't know if you would consider Another Day to be a ballad, but if you go back and listen to it, the style of Along for the Ride is VERY similar.

I disagree.  I mean, even aside from the fact that I think Another Day is one of DT's absolute worst songs, whereas Along for the Ride may be top 20.

[chaossystem]

Ok.

But why don't you like it?

"one of the WORST?"

Wow!

That's HARSH!

Anyway, I hope you understand that I didn't mean that the two songs sound like each other.

I just meant that I think the STYLE is very similar.

oops!
Forgot to ask:
In what way do you mean that AftR is unique?

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know if you would consider Another Day to be a ballad, but if you go back and listen to it, the style of Along for the Ride is VERY similar.

I disagree.  I mean, even aside from the fact that I think Another Day is one of DT's absolute worst songs, whereas Along for the Ride may be top 20.

Along for the Ride is a block of cheese.

[chaossystem]

That could be taken so many ways!

How do YOU mean it?

[TheGreatPretender]

It's delicious and can be melted over nachos.

[BlobVanDam]

That could be taken so many ways!

How do YOU mean it?

I really don't think it can.



Even though the comparison is an insult to cheese, because real cheese makes everything better, but metaphorical cheese, apparently not.

[chaossystem]

What I meant was, what with all the talk about "lactose intolerance" these days, I thought you were comparing the song to something that makes people sick by clogging arteries, nasal passages, etc.

Now me, I love milk and all or most milk by-products, but some people tend to get very "preachy" about how we should never use or consume any of those things.

That's why I wanted to be clear on your meaning.

And I STRONGLY disagree with you about AftR. If you want to hear CHEESE (not to mention SLEAZE!) listen to some of the god-awful crap that they're playing on the top 40 stations these days!!!

[TheGreatPretender]

And I STRONGLY disagree with you about AftR.

I don't always agree with chaossystem... But when I do... It's Christmas.

[chaossystem]

Merry Christmas to you, too...

...And the REST of my "forum friends!"

[erwinrafael]

While I somehow like AftR, it is a block of cheese. Just like The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You.

[Dublagent66]

That could be taken so many ways!

How do YOU mean it?

I really don't think it can.



Even though the comparison is an insult to cheese, because real cheese makes everything better, but metaphorical cheese, apparently not.

True.  Cheese and music in the same sentence is rarely a good thing. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, AftR is still a fantastic song even if you find the lyrics cheesy. That's a subjective opinion anyway, like if I were to say that the lyrics for LSOAD are pretentious.

[wolfking]

Agree with Blob, AFTR is a cheese fest. 

Also,

Another Day >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTR.

[Öxölklöfför]

In my book, "epic" is defined by a track that is "20:ish" minutes long. It's nothing that I explicitly have "decided" for myself, it's just how I have come to think about it.

With that said, I do agree on that it has been discussed to death.

[chaossystem]

Agree with Blob, AFTR is a cheese fest. 

Also,

Another Day >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTR.

What does ">>>>>>>>>" mean?

Also, is anyone HONESTLY going to say that Along for the Ride is the first and only "Cheesy" thing DT has ever done??

[rumborak]

> in math means greater-than, >> means much-greater-than. You get the idea.

[chaossystem]

So I guess it means "much, much, much...." greater.

Anyway, Bosk would probably have those two songs reversed, and I'm not taking a side, because I think they're bOTH very good.

So there!

[Rodni Demental]

Agree with Blob, AFTR is a cheese fest. 

Also,

Another Day >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTR.

What does ">>>>>>>>>" mean?

Also, is anyone HONESTLY going to say that Along for the Ride is the first and only "Cheesy" thing DT has ever done??

Nope, Dream Theater has been oozing cheese since probably the beginning, can easily be pointed out on parts of I&W and especially FII and many more onwards. In all fairness, I think cheese is one of the band's key ingredients, even if it's occasssionally a bit strong for some people's taste.

[kirksnosehair]

There can never be enough cheese.   Cheese is like bacon - it makes everything better 

[TAC]

There can never be enough cheese.   Cheese is like bacon - it makes everything better 

Especially when it's cheese and bacon together!!!

[chaossystem]

Well, if you overdo it, it CAN be bad for you.

Just like I find that if I don't occasionally mix in a little bit of other music, I COULD get sick of just listening to DT or metal bands such as Metallica and Maiden.

[Fredo96993]

This is the criteria I used for an epic:
No Chorus
At least ten minutes long
A change in musical direction

These things tend to go hand in hand.

[Mosh]

Octavarium, Six Degrees, Learning To Live, those all have choruses. Just to name a few.