5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[mikeyd23]

For the record, do we actually know how long a break MP wanted to take when he originally brought it up to the guys? I thought I remembered (from back when it happened) that he initially asked for a 5 year break. The guys thought that was too long and said no, so MP quit. DT then moved on and hired MM and after that, MP came back to them and said it didn't have to be 5 years, it could be less. But at that point, the band had already committed to MM.

Am I remembering this totally wrong? It seems like people in this thread are saying because MP said after the fact he didn't ask for 5 years, he clearly would have been cool with a 1 year break or less... First of all, of course MP would say that, it is the victim role and it passes blame to the other guys, which MP kinda has a history of doing. Second, I thought when he said that he was referencing his willingness after the band hired MM to take less of a break.

Like I said, I might be remembering this stuff all wrong...?

No, you are remembering it exactly right.  But I am not sure Mike was "locked" into 5 years.  It has sounded to me like he threw a number out there initially that made sense to him, but that he was willing to be flexible and do something a bit shorter if that was the consensus, but that the band did not want to take ANY extended break at all (which I agree with), which was not acceptable to Mike.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. That's pretty much what I thought, but I was reading through this thread and starting second guessing myself based on some of these comments.

[jjrock88]

The last 2 albums got me back on board in terms of genuine interest in new releases after a long period of "passing interest".

me too

[Madman Shepherd]

For the record, do we actually know how long a break MP wanted to take when he originally brought it up to the guys? I thought I remembered (from back when it happened) that he initially asked for a 5 year break. The guys thought that was too long and said no, so MP quit. DT then moved on and hired MM and after that, MP came back to them and said it didn't have to be 5 years, it could be less. But at that point, the band had already committed to MM.

Am I remembering this totally wrong? It seems like people in this thread are saying because MP said after the fact he didn't ask for 5 years, he clearly would have been cool with a 1 year break or less... First of all, of course MP would say that, it is the victim role and it passes blame to the other guys, which MP kinda has a history of doing. Second, I thought when he said that he was referencing his willingness after the band hired MM to take less of a break.

Like I said, I might be remembering this stuff all wrong...?

No, you are remembering it exactly right.  But I am not sure Mike was "locked" into 5 years.  It has sounded to me like he threw a number out there initially that made sense to him, but that he was willing to be flexible and do something a bit shorter if that was the consensus, but that the band did not want to take ANY extended break at all (which I agree with), which was not acceptable to Mike.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. That's pretty much what I thought, but I was reading through this thread and starting second guessing myself based on some of these comments.

I believe in interviews right after the split, it was clarified that at first he wanted to take an indefinite hiatus.  The idea was they would take a break and then when they all felt ready to get going again, they would get together whether it was 2 years or 4 years.  Only problem was, nobody else wanted any hiatus but in order to hear him out they were asking him what was the maximum time frame.  I believe thats when MP probably said 5 years. 

It is also interesting to note that MP even threw out the idea of getting a session drummer or doing a few short tours over the next few years to tide the DT guys over. 

Anyway, I'm going to try to find the interview. 

[Voices]

Portnoy was wrong, but I think that the events ended up being the best for the band. ADTOE and DT12 are pretty solid, and I don't think things would've been better with MP around (even without the break or hiatus he wanted). If there was a break, MP would be involved with all the projects he is anyway, and IMO he is not creating anything I haven't heard from him before (fills, grooves and stuff).
DT is much more powerful and fresh now with MM.

[gmillerdrake]

Portnoy was wrong, but I think that the events ended up being the best for the band. ADTOE and DT12 are pretty solid, and I don't think things would've been better with MP around (even without the break or hiatus he wanted). If there was a break, MP would be involved with all the projects he is anyway, and IMO he is not creating anything I haven't heard from him before (fills, grooves and stuff).
DT is much more powerful and fresh now with MM.

[?]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a good thing the band didn't take a break. They released A Dramatic turn of events about a year later, which is my 4th favorite Dream Theater album and truly a tremendous piece of work. I also want to point out that I think their live shows have improved quite a bit - the Along for the ride tour featured the best looking stage set in my opinion, which made those concerts the best ones I've seen the band put on.

This, basically.

[Cruithne]

Despite my significant issues with the proselytising tone of certain lyrics on DT12 meaning I've never bought it and don't intend to, as far as I'm concerned ADTOE is their best work since SFaM, and despite my issues with DT12 that album at least sounds like all members of the band had the creative blinkers off.

Tbh, I would have rather MP had just taken more of a back seat post-BC&SL (at least for a few albums) and stopped forcing a direction to their albums rather than just letting the creative process run freely.

As far as I'm concerned MP was wrong, the band did not need a hiatus to recharge, they just needed him to step away from the helm and let the boat sail freely. Unfortunately he ended up jumping overboard whilst they sailed away.

For starters, I think it's worth pointing out that MP has recently stated that he did not specifically ask for a five year hiatus. As has previously stated by others in this thread it just as easily could have been six months to a year if he'd been able to convince the other guys.

For starters, he asked for an indefinite hiatus (IIRC). Since that fundamentally wasn't acceptable to the rest of the band they tried to pin him down to a specific length of time, which is when the five year time span was purportedly mentioned.

Also, let's not forget that when MP proposed the hiatus he was doing it having been out on an arena tour with A7X and I'm betting the rest of DT assumed the same that many of us did: MP was asking them to suspend their careers so he could hedge his bets in case A7X didn't work out and in the mean time their main source of income would dry up. Regardless of how MP may try and spin it now, that's how it looked at the time and still looks now.

[cramx3]

Also, let's not forget that when MP proposed the hiatus he was doing it having been out on an arena tour with A7X and I'm betting the rest of DT assumed the same that many of us did: MP was asking them to suspend their careers so he could hedge his bets in case A7X didn't work out and in the mean time their main source of income would dry up. Regardless of how MP may try and spin it now, that's how it looked at the time and still looks now.

This is exactly how I felt when this went down, and then when A7Z released him, he wanted back in with DT. 

[Stadler]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

For what it's worth, I agree with that assessment.  Certainly not bad, but if I needed to reach for a DT album to blow someone's socks off, it isn't one of those two. 

[Darkstarshades]

He was deadly wrong.
Portnoy couldn't even create an ending to I&W intro song, MM could give OTBA an ending.

[Stadler]

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43404.msg1935862#msg1935862

DTF ranks ADTOE #5, ahead of every MP album after SDOIT.
DTF ranks DT12 #9, ahead of the last two MP albums and WDADU.

Given that the fans here tend to like most or all of DT's albums, I don't think I would consider a rank of #6 or #7 to be an "average" effort.

Huh?   There are 12 albums.   Understanding that a) there is no math that directly quantifies this, and b) I am not at all confusing "median" and "mean" (average), just using both concepts, I'm not at all sure how it's not reasonable to assume a rank of 9 out of 12 isn't at least "average".    And same for "5".   

Look, it's all subjective, but any one person's opinion is useless; it is irrelevant.  So to say "I think it's their best!" is a waste of bandwidth.  The best we have is the various means of drawing a consensus, and I think the OP is right on the mark, or at least reasonable for thinking so.

I also note that Mike didn't say "5 years", or if he did, he backed away from it to be flexible (which should be lauded, not ridiculed) and since I think the band lost a LOT when he left, if not musically then in terms of "clubhouse" or band management, I think he was right.   Dream Theater was a special, almost unique band for me when he was there, now they are merely a very good band out of many very good bands I listen to.  Still, barely, a first day buy, but honestly, I probably will never see them live again (unless there is some special event or something different than the same old same old of the last two tours and the looks of the current tour says "not this time"). 

[Darkstarshades]

Aah
I... I'm sorry, wrong post lol.

Anyway.
Speaking seriously, I agree with all those who said that the split ended up being for the best for both parts. It was what MP needed and what DT needed.
I think they'll go higher with the new album considering that they have evolved a lot in the last few years.

[Podaar]

I think he was correct in a certain way. If we would have received BC&SL 2.0 I probably would have lost interest completely. So a change was needed. Mike wasn't wrong.

That being said, I agree with this:

Tbh, I would have rather MP had just taken more of a back seat post-BC&SL (at least for a few albums) and stopped forcing a direction to their albums rather than just letting the creative process run freely.

As far as I'm concerned MP was wrong, the band did not need a hiatus to recharge, they just needed him to step away from the helm and let the boat sail freely. Unfortunately he ended up jumping overboard whilst they sailed away.

I think ADToE is top notch and DT12 is above average, so that's all good.

I really wish I could personally get into MP's projects more but they just don't resonate with me. Still, he seems happy so that's all good too.

[Nel_Annette]

Had the s/t come out in 2011 and we never got ADTOE, I'd have agreed with Portnoy. But ADTOE proves to me that they can still put out great things. Unless DT13 says otherwise, I'm just going to consider DT12 a momentary fumble.

[Setlist Scotty]

I have mixed feelings on the whole thing. While I wasn't completely happy with the metal direction that the last 2 albums were taking (especially the pseudo-cookie monster vocals), I still enjoyed the albums a lot (BCaSL more so, SC less so). And while I'm glad that DT's still continuing to release albums, there's still something missing. While JP and JR were the main source of raw musical ideas, MP helped arrange them besides his own ideas. I also think it was good having him there in a leadership role alongside JP, instead of JP just directing everything on his own now. It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).

With everything MP's done since, for me it's been a mixed bag - while I enjoy Transatlantic, Flying Colors, PSMS and to a lesser degree The Winery Dogs, none of them is anywhere near as appealing to me as DT has been. Nevermind all the extras that MP brought to the table for the fans (official bootlegs, rotating setlists, covers, regular contact/updates, etc). Lastly, I'm sad to see the relationships that he had with the other band members (save JR) breakdown - while that aspect doesn't affect me personally, I do know how it feels to lose a friendship with someone I used to be close to for many years and how I miss them, even if we've both moved on with our lives.

Just to clarify regarding what MP proposed regarding the hiatus, originally it was to be indefinite. When pushed for a specific amount of time (from the other guys), MP suggested 5 years. When that was met with resistance, he suggested 3 years, then 2 years, then 1.5 years, then 1 year and finally suggested them to use a temporary replacement for the next album/tour cycle - all of which were rejected. He was given the ultimatum of going with them into the studio that following January or leaving the band. This is my own personal speculation, but had MP originally suggested a smaller amount of time, like 1 to 2 years, maybe they would've been more willing to consider. But I can imagine them worrying that at the end of the agreed upon hiatus, he might not be ready to return to DT and may have pushed for more time (thereby getting his original wish) - if that were the case, I can't say I blame them.

I do hope that one day they'll be able to patch things up at least personally. But I do hope that one day MP will be back with DT again. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen, nor do I expect it to (unlike when the breakup first happen), but it is merely a wish I have.

[Calvin6s]

I do hope that one day they'll be able to patch things up at least personally. But I do hope that one day MP will be back with DT again. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen, nor do I expect it to (unlike when the breakup first happen), but it is merely a wish I have.

It could have worked with an amicable hiatus.  But now, even if MP returned, the dynamic would be different.

This third post-DT release might be make or break for me as far as me following DT closely as opposed to just buying their new albums on a casual basis.  My bias for DT had me liking ADToE and DT12, but time has left me putting them at the bottom of my DT album rotation.  They strike me as lateral moves as opposed to "progressive".

[Madman Shepherd]

It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).

Thats not my interpretation of what MM said.  I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner and because of that he doesn't contribute that much.  Doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything, just that he takes a backseat and is more careful about inserting himself into the process unless he feels strongly about something. 

[Calvin6s]

Thats not my interpretation of what MM said.  I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner

But why does he feel that way?  It can only be that he doesn't believe in himself or that he doesn't think the band fully believes in his songwriting ability.

For a band that is having a tough time breaking out of past patterns, the new member would obviously be the the biggest asset.

[Madman Shepherd]

Thats not my interpretation of what MM said.  I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner

But why does he feel that way?  It can only be that he doesn't believe in himself or that he doesn't think the band fully believes in his songwriting ability.

For a band that is having a tough time breaking out of past patterns, the new member would obviously be the the biggest asset.

Or option C: He is a drummer that doesn't have a ton of experience building melodies and harmonies, etc.  I also don't think that DT is having a tough time breaking out of past patterns. 

[Mindflux]

But why does he feel that way?  It can only be that he doesn't believe in himself or that he doesn't think the band fully believes in his songwriting ability.

Or.. novel idea. He doesn't think he's been with the band long enough to offer much more than some occasional advice.  He's humble, but very aware of his skill set.

[Setlist Scotty]

It could have worked with an amicable hiatus.  But now, even if MP returned, the dynamic would be different.

It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut. Had things been perfectly amicable had MP not opened his mouth, I'd still question how the friendships would be today as soon as the issue of settling up the finances came into play. You can be sure that MP rightfully deserved a huge cut and JP, being the business man of the group, wasn't willing to just give up a huge wad of cash without a fight.

It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).

Thats not my interpretation of what MM said.  I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner and because of that he doesn't contribute that much.  Doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything, just that he takes a backseat and is more careful about inserting himself into the process unless he feels strongly about something.

Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

[goo-goo]

Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.

[gmillerdrake]

It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut.

This was the difference for me in where I fell as far as 'what side' I'm on. MP was a complete  after he didn't get ANY of his ways. He didn't get the hiatus...he didn't get to keep drumming for AX7 and he didn't get to come back to the band when it all blew up in his face. Rather than put his ego aside and admit he was wrong right when it happen (could have actually worked for him to get back in the band) he chose to be an ignorant  for the next year or so. Other than JLB defending himself (and DT) against some comment MP made.....those guys kept their mouths shut and stayed respectful about the whole thing. I lost near most of any 'respect' I had for MP due to his actions/comments in the wake of the break up. I still dig the guys drumming and buy his music (save Adrenaline Mob ) but I used to hold him in high regard (for whatever reason)....not so much anymore.

as far as the rest of the DT members 'playing a role', other than an outright non agreement to take a hiatus there is nothing that has been made public that indicates they did anything to 'drive' MP away.

[Calvin6s]

And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion).

I was going to respond, but I literally don't gain an ounce of joy discussing this subject, so I'm gonna try to leave this thread and try not to get tempted back in.  Observing and drawing conclusions on band relationships might be inevitable in one's mind, but talking about it seems pointless in the end.

[Madman Shepherd]

It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).

Thats not my interpretation of what MM said.  I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner and because of that he doesn't contribute that much.  Doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything, just that he takes a backseat and is more careful about inserting himself into the process unless he feels strongly about something.

Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

No, there's not a problem.  Just because a band gets a new member that does not maintain the previous lineups dynamics does not mean its a problem.  That would be like saying it is a problem that Dio actually wrote lyrics in Black Sabbath whereas Ozzy had Geezer write lyrics for him.  Both lineups were awesome.  Some people prefer one lineup over the other perhaps because of the dynamics, but that change does not mean it is a problem in any way. 

Some drummers (i.e.: most) actually prefer to really focus on the drumming.  Sure you've got instances of a Lee Kerslake stepping in to create some vocal melodies, or like the example below a Marco Minnemann taking a big role, but those are the exception rather than the rule. 

And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.

I've heard some of Marco's stuff and if he would have became the drummer and geared it more in that direction then all I can say is thank god they went with Mangini. 

[goo-goo]

And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion).

I was going to respond, but I literally don't gain an ounce of joy discussing this subject, so I'm gonna try to leave this thread and try not to get tempted back in.  Observing and drawing conclusions on band relationships might be inevitable in one's mind, but talking about it seems pointless in the end.

And I totally agree. I thought about it several times before pressing the post button. I know the subject has been brought up many many times. Again, I like Mangini's drumming. And I like the fact the he is a very genuine person and technically, he's very gifted. I wasn't trying to bash the Genie. Just tried to make a point.

[goo-goo]

I've heard some of Marco's stuff and if he would have became the drummer and geared it more in that direction then all I can say is thank god they went with Mangini.

I didn't say Marco's stuff would trickle in into DT. I said that he has a lot more experience in writing and composing than Mangini. Personally, I don't like Marco's solo stuff, but I love the Aristocrats and love LMR.

[RoeDent]

And ELL OH ELL at the idea that ADTOE borrows the arrangements from Images & Words and implies that that's a bad thing

How many bands have songs with identical structures ?

This. Big time. It was only through people pointing it out on here that I even noticed the structural "issues".

ADTOE remains a very refreshing listen, with all the "goosebumps" moments (and there are many) still doing it for me, nearly 4 years on.

[Calvin6s]

Just tried to make a point.

A point of which I basically agree. But it was nothing you said.  It was just the burnout of wondering why I let myself get caught up in this.  It is so low on my priorities of life that it only registers when I log into a Dream Theater conversation.  I literally never think of it outside a DT community discussion.  And any statement gets boiled down to you either being a DT fanboy or DT hater, so we should all just post "I hate DT" or "I love DT" just so we can get to the last page of the book faster.

[goo-goo]

And as far as the OP goes, I miss the behind the scenes from the band, the official bootlegs, the short vids from the studio, the making of's, etc...That's what made DT more exciting. But to some extent, DT was very stale creatively with MP as "musical director". ADTOE and DT12 were very refreshing both lyrically and musically (aside from the sonic issues).

[Cable]

And as far as the OP goes, I miss the behind the scenes from the band, the official bootlegs, the short vids from the studio, the making of's, etc...That's what made DT more exciting. But to some extent, DT was very stale creatively with MP as "musical director". ADTOE and DT12 were very refreshing both lyrically and musically (aside from the sonic issues).

Agreed. I almost wonder at times if the band is better off now, vs. then. I mean, I like the music much more of the last two albums vs. the last two MP albums. SC, despite me liking ITPOE a whole lot, and a couple of other songs and parts are solid, is by far to me their worst album ever. TDEN is their worst song ever for me, and is really a microcosm of what I perceived to be the major problem. MP gutted the verses, did lead vocals basically, and they crammed an instrumental section in. And lets have JR noodle over one of the more unique DT sections.

This has all already been said probably- what was lost? As you mentioned, the behind the scenes stuff and bootlegs. Going further, for better or for worse, the direct contact with the fans. The more rotating setlists, and concerts NOT being on rails. The setlist was verbatim for each show last tour, no 2 to 3 set rotation. The backing vocals are canned and weak, where outside of the tough guy vocals, MP I feel improved as a backing vocalist. Backing is key, because he lost it a bit when he was not remembering that. I cannot say the visuals and lights have become better, which one would think would be the case with concerts on rails. ToT to me was really the pinnacle of that. The commentary stuff seems long gone too. That was an initial thing that pulled me into the band, the LSFNY commentary was cool.

I appreciate JM getting a bit more into the picture. At this point, I cannot really say the band is that much better off without MP.

[KevShmev]

In some respects, I agree that a bit of the excitement regarding behind the scenes stuff isn't the same.  No one in the band now hypes up upcoming album the way Portnoy did, but on the flip side, I was one who was sick and tired of him being the face of the band.  Nearly every interview, whether it be about a new album or a tour, was going to have to Mike Portnoy, and he was going to dominate the conversation.  That got old really fast.  Remember the awesome outtakes of JLB and JP cutting up from a while back?  That never would have happened with Portnoy in the band.  Plus, the last two albums are, IMO, much better than the last four albums they did with Mike Portnoy, so while they aren't about to top their early material, which happened a long time ago now, they turned the musical ship around once Mangini joined the band.

It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut.

This was the difference for me in where I fell as far as 'what side' I'm on. MP was a complete  after he didn't get ANY of his ways. He didn't get the hiatus...he didn't get to keep drumming for AX7 and he didn't get to come back to the band when it all blew up in his face. Rather than put his ego aside and admit he was wrong right when it happen (could have actually worked for him to get back in the band) he chose to be an ignorant  for the next year or so. Other than JLB defending himself (and DT) against some comment MP made.....those guys kept their mouths shut and stayed respectful about the whole thing. I lost near most of any 'respect' I had for MP due to his actions/comments in the wake of the break up. I still dig the guys drumming and buy his music (save Adrenaline Mob ) but I used to hold him in high regard (for whatever reason)....not so much anymore.

as far as the rest of the DT members 'playing a role', other than an outright non agreement to take a hiatus there is nothing that has been made public that indicates they did anything to 'drive' MP away.

Well said. 

[TAC]

But let's not forget that DT really made a stand here. IMO they called his bluff, and I'm sorry, they were relieved to see him go.

[Kotowboy]

^ Yup. Portnoy assumed that he had control of the band and when he realised he didn't he had a massive tantrum.

Then he assumed he'd be the full time member of AX7 and when he blabbed too much in the press and got let go - he had another massive tantrum.

I couldn't decide whether his constant social media outbursts were pathetic or comical.

[Darkstarshades]

I was never bothered by MP's ego.
Being a long time Nightwish fan, I think he pales in comparison to Tuomas Holopainen, lol, talk about being the "face"