5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[ariich]

I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.

As someone whose favourite song on Awake is SDV and who loved what they did with it live, I can't agree at all.

When I first saw a YT clip of Space Dye Vest live, I'll admit I was a bit bummed, but when I saw it live twice in a week, them rocking it up a bit live at the end was pretty freaking awesome.

Yeah, I mean I wasn't bummed when I heard about the changes but I didn't really have a strong opinion for or against and wondered why they'd done it. But that sort of thing is very much for the people who are at the show, and when I actually saw it live it was great.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Cons:

1- Fan interaction has suffered. Greatly. It's been months since we had any true updates or anything new to discuss about, and that makes me forget about DT for a while (thing that never happened in the Portnoy days).

2- The 30th anniversary setlist sucked mostly, which is kind of a wasted landmark.

3- The band feels more like any other rock band nowadays, and doesn't feel as special as I felt they were back in 2006, for example.

1- I agree, but that is something relative.. For instance, I like that silence.. In fact, I would prefer they don't give any information at all until the day of the release..
Personal advice: (I'm not going to say "You should listen to other bands", because I'm pretty sure no one listen to just one band, and less when that band is DT, but) sometimes you have to 'forget' a band you like, in order to give yourself a breath from it, and then go back to it.. You'll see how it gets even better..

2- No, it didn't.. It was great.. Except for the MM's era repetitive songs, all the other were excellent choices..

3- Rock band? No fckng way!.. They're still prog and metal, and yeah, sometimes the thing gets very hardrock, but rock band? 

2) It's not about the choices only, but the flow of the songs which I thought wasn't good.

Afterlife as an opener is kind of meh, and so unsuited for JLB as an opening song because he struggled a lot and didn't sound good singing that.
Metropolis is always nice, but it's kind of burnt out. What about Learning to Live? Take the Time?
Caught in a Web is a nice song, but far from being a whole representative of Awake. What about Voices? That would have been nice, and maybe would have added a better flow from Metropolis.
ACOS Innocence was awesome to listen to, no complaints. Shame it didn't make the cut for the shorter set festivals.
Burning my Soul is super meh, Peruvian Skies would have been so much better (taking a 'short song out of FII).
Spirit Carries On is always a nice song, but its slot in the set seemed very weird to me.
About to Crash was an awesome inclusion from SDOIT, but once again shame it didn't make the festival cut.
As I Am...I get its inclusion in a festival setlist, but that album has so many strong songs it seems weird to represent it with As I Am. Also, the transition from About to Crash to As I Am sounds kind of forced to me.
Panic Attack sounded amazing with Mangini, no complaints there.
I don't like Constant Motion at all, so that's a part of the set I kind of hated. They could've busted out ITPOE Pt.1 which is barely 2 minutes longer than Constant Motion and rocked our worlds. Also, it seems kind of weird playing that song without MP.
I like Wither, but also its spot in the set feels weird. I know it's an incremental set, but it feels weird you know?
Bridges in the Sky was an amazing inclusion, but it's shame this wasn't JLB's best tour ever because he didn't make the song justice vocally (judging from 4 or 5 bootlegs I listened to and the Wacken show).
Behind the Veil is not a good concert closer. Judging from the Wacken show, people were kind of bored at that point in the show. I like Behind the Veil, but its position as set closer didn't make it any justice. What about The Bigger Picture? That would have been a glorious ending song.

That's my reasoning behind my dislike of the setlist as a whole. I would have payed to see it if I lived in Europe, but would have been kind of underwhelmed.

3) Easy with the rock band thing. I know they're a prog metal band. I'm not talking about their music, I'm talking about the band interaction with the fans. They feel like 'any' band with their fans now, with little updates every now and then, every band announcement done by press releases, lack of facebook and social media interaction, etc.

Upon reading my original post again, I get why that third point might be confusing. I'm not talking about the music at all, and calling DT a standard 'rock' band wouldn't make sense considering one of my first 'pros' of this new DT is that their music feels more fresh and inspired to me. I hope that clears things up. 

[425]

Honestly, I don't like that they did "one song from each album played chronologically," because whatever way you go, WDADU doesn't provide you with a good opener. And if you're looking for the best of mediocre openers, you need to go A Fortune in Lies, not Afterlife.

At least on Score they played two songs from the new album first including The Root of All Evil as an opener.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Yeah, they could've played songs from every album but rearrange them in the setlist. That would have let them be more diverse with the songs and the show would have had a better flow.

[Evermind]

Yeah, they could've played songs from every album but rearrange them in the setlist. That would have let them be more diverse with the songs and the show would have had a better flow.

I agree, but in fact I think Afterlife made a great opener, all things considered.

[Madman Shepherd]

Honestly, I don't like that they did "one song from each album played chronologically," because whatever way you go, WDADU doesn't provide you with a good opener. And if you're looking for the best of mediocre openers, you need to go A Fortune in Lies, not Afterlife.

At least on Score they played two songs from the new album first including The Root of All Evil as an opener.

I agree with you.  When I first heard they were doing a chronological setlist, I just assumed they would start with AFIL.  Afterlife is definitely not a good opener. 

I am not a fan of chronological setlists anyway, even on Score which I think is an equally weak setlist, but you're right about TROAE being a good opener.  In fact, I think it may be one of their best openers in their catalog.  So at least Score had that going for it. 

[rumborak]

Skip the video intro, play TOWHTSTS instead. Perfect opener right there. Not only that, but the members could come on stage one by one.

[Madman Shepherd]

Excellent song and cool idea but it always seems like that song and LFAGA are the two most hated from that album. 

[pcs90]

Skip the video intro, play TOWHTSTS instead. Perfect opener right there. Not only that, but the members could come on stage one by one.

That is a pretty cool idea actually. It does seem like a really odd opener just because that song isn't exactly super well-known and seems to be rarely performed, but it could still work. Having said that I agree with the posts above saying they should have changed up the order and replaced a few of the songs.

[ToT-147]

At least on Score they played two songs from the new album first including The Root of All Evil as an opener.

Yeah, they could've played songs from every album but rearrange them in the setlist. That would have let them be more diverse with the songs and the show would have had a better flow.

Agreed and agreed..

If they had played two songs from DT12 there are two obvious choices (STR and TBP), but if it were just one, I think STR would have been great as opener.. Nonetheless, and sadly, this was just an anniversary tour, and they decided to play one song from each album to commemorate the 30th years, and plus that, this was also a festival tour like someone said before.. It wasn't like Score in that sense..

But yeah, and if they had ordered in a non-chronological way the setlist, I suppose BTV itself would've been a nice opener, besides the obvious ones (AIA and BitS)..

[ReaPsTA]

Underrated aspect of DT's live Space Dye Vest - The song feels like something you're supposed to listen to by yourself in your room during a rainy evening. The various little changes they made to the tone and dynamics of the song before JLB's high notes to make it play in a big concert hall were really good.

Overall, it's more about how they're different rather than whether one is better. Before JLB's "There's no one to take my blame" line, the other instruments drop out and you just have the keyboard and samples. There's a glassy synth pad that's fairly muted in the original but more emphasized in the live version. The original is more of a numb feeling, whereas the live version is more wistful ('I remember when I was open and how great it was'). The quieter samples in the original are like nagging, painful memories. The louder, reverbed samples in the live version feel more like being shouted down in the present tense.

The point is both versions tell the story about a guy closing himself off, but in different ways. It's not like the new version makes the old one not exist, or that the old one precludes the existence of the new one.

[Calvin6s]

Back to the Portnoy being right scenario.

In some ways, yes.  The PR from the split ultimately helped DT.  Even I had gone from a diehard DT fan to a casual fan, and the news brought me back to posting with DT fans after basically a 8-9 year hiatus.  ADToE probably would have been how I received all post 6DOIT releases.  Purchased and still excited about DT, but far from diehard.  And the reunion probably would have been very good.  What the reunion produced would have resulted in short term or long term PR / media success.

But using some projection backed by some insider information (only slightly insider), I kind of understand the possibility of the reason for the split.  Much of Portnoy's DT-tenure decisions were correct.  But the "I know what's best" (even if true) can be trying to those that might be thinking "how do we know if my suggestions wouldn't produce similar or better results if not given a serious and multi-step opportunity?"

There had already been rumors that MP and JP were both close and ready to go at it simultaneously.  Sometimes I think that is one reason JP started lifting.  So when the window presented itself, the "lesser" leaders came to consensus that "we will never know if a different approach will work if we don't try now."

But don't hold me to that or assume I care if my involuntary situation mapping is correct.  It is just a thought that flashed through my mind way back then.  It is entirely possible that too little direct information and too much projection is all that is.  I enjoy what the JP-MP collaboration brings, so all the *drama* is really irrelevant.

[ariich]

Underrated aspect of DT's live Space Dye Vest - The song feels like something you're supposed to listen to by yourself in your room during a rainy evening. The various little changes they made to the tone and dynamics of the song before JLB's high notes to make it play in a big concert hall were really good.

Overall, it's more about how they're different rather than whether one is better. Before JLB's "There's no one to take my blame" line, the other instruments drop out and you just have the keyboard and samples. There's a glassy synth pad that's fairly muted in the original but more emphasized in the live version. The original is more of a numb feeling, whereas the live version is more wistful ('I remember when I was open and how great it was'). The quieter samples in the original are like nagging, painful memories. The louder, reverbed samples in the live version feel more like being shouted down in the present tense.

The point is both versions tell the story about a guy closing himself off, but in different ways. It's not like the new version makes the old one not exist, or that the old one precludes the existence of the new one.

Very nicely put, couldn't have said it any better!

[Skeever]

Underrated aspect of DT's live Space Dye Vest - The song feels like something you're supposed to listen to by yourself in your room during a rainy evening. The various little changes they made to the tone and dynamics of the song before JLB's high notes to make it play in a big concert hall were really good.

Overall, it's more about how they're different rather than whether one is better. Before JLB's "There's no one to take my blame" line, the other instruments drop out and you just have the keyboard and samples. There's a glassy synth pad that's fairly muted in the original but more emphasized in the live version. The original is more of a numb feeling, whereas the live version is more wistful ('I remember when I was open and how great it was'). The quieter samples in the original are like nagging, painful memories. The louder, reverbed samples in the live version feel more like being shouted down in the present tense.

The point is both versions tell the story about a guy closing himself off, but in different ways. It's not like the new version makes the old one not exist, or that the old one precludes the existence of the new one.

That's quite the rationale, but I don't hear it at all.

[Setlist Scotty]

There had already been rumors that MP and JP were both close and ready to go at it simultaneously.  Sometimes I think that is one reason JP started lifting.

"Go at it" - as in get into a fist fight with one another? If so, I can hardly imagine that ever happening. While JP and MP didn't see eye to eye on everything, I can't imagine that things would've ever devolved into a fist fight. I'd want to know where those rumors came from before even considering them to hold an ounce of truth.

[TAC]

Yeah that doesn't seem right at all.

[Calvin6s]

Basically get to the point where one side no longer wants to compromise with the other side.

I'm not going to speculate in what fashion it would take place (although we don't have to speculate any longer).  But the rumor was that Portnoy had the strongest "will" to hold on to his side of the opinion, so he usually got his way.  It doesn't matter if Portnoy turned out right or wrong.

Honestly, I don't care about the inner workings of a band.  What I had heard had no "physical" implications.  That came from the spitting scenes that everybody seemed to witness.

All I am saying is neither side was really right or wrong.  It was just human nature.  Dominici isn't working out ... age difference.  Kevin Moore was on a divergent path.  Rudess was closer to the DT vision than Sherinian.  Is LaBrie holding us back?  And eventually, the two leaders would butt heads one too many times.

And sometimes one *bulks* up not to encourage a fight, but to discourage one. <see Danzig>

It isn't a single source or rumor.

[Darkstarshades]

I'm pretty sure the fisfight woudln't be JP vs MP but MP vs JLB hahaha

[Setlist Scotty]

Basically get to the point where one side no longer wants to compromise with the other side.

I'm not going to speculate in what fashion it would take place (although we don't have to speculate any longer).  But the rumor was that Portnoy had the strongest "will" to hold on to his side of the opinion, so he usually got his way.  It doesn't matter if Portnoy turned out right or wrong.

While MP was known for fighting for his side, that doesn't mean that he always won, nor that he always insisted on it being his way. A perfect example of that would be his lead vocals on ANtR, as is well documented. Had it been up to him, they would've been full-on cookie monster, but JP wasn't comfortable with that, so instead they went with what ended up on the album.

I'm pretty sure the fisfight woudln't be JP vs MP but MP vs JLB hahaha

Exactly.

[Calvin6s]

I don't know why you guys want to make a test of wills into inevitably a test of strength.  Or, if one side gets their way more often than not, that it is the equivalent to getting their way all the time.

As far as JLB, that is just dumbing things down.  MP and JP were clearly the leaders and therefore the division between them would mostly rest on their shoulders and therefore the ultimate intersection is always at the crossroads of Petrucci St. and Portnoy Ave.

I'm not going to defend this to the end, because it was simply an observation based on some rumor and facts.  But ultimately, it spells out why discussing a band's inner workings is ok with off the cuff statements, but when it starts to go beyond that ... something I don't want to be a part of.

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't know why you guys want to make a test of wills into inevitably a test of strength.  Or, if one side gets their way more often than not, that it is the equivalent to getting their way all the time.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but by saying that they were "ready to go at it" gives the impression of a fist fight or the like. If that wasn't the case, that's cool - just say so.   

As far as JLB, that is just dumbing things down.  MP and JP were clearly the leaders and therefore the division between them would mostly rest on their shoulders and therefore the ultimate intersection is always at the crossroads of Petrucci St. and Portnoy Ave.

There's no argument over who the leaders were when MP was in the band - it's pretty undisputed that it was JP and MP. But the reason why JL was brought in to the mix is because there was at least one or two times where an argument between MP and JL got heated enough that it almost resulted in a fist fight.

[Calvin6s]

There's no argument over who the leaders were when MP was in the band - it's pretty undisputed that it was JP and MP. But the reason why JL was brought in to the mix is because there was at least one or two times where an argument between MP and JL got heated enough that it almost resulted in a fist fight.

Yeah.  I understand that.

I will clarify a bit more on the go at it and JP lifting weights.

It is more of a mental thing.  You are butting heads with somebody (even productively) and then it starts to get a little more tense than usual.  Most likely because it is just building off past differences.  So sometimes one feels the need to channel that into physical conditioning.  Partly for release and in the back of the mind, to discourage something from ever going beyond words.

Kind of like "if you want peace, prepare for war" adage.  It doesn't mean you are ready to "throw down" or "go at it".  Many times, it means you are trying to discourage it.

But I'm not claiming any of this as fact.  Just tossing something out there for thought.

[hefdaddy42]

Seems like JP said someone introduced him to power lifting, and he tried it and loved it. 

That seems fine.  Any attempt to introduce any band dynamic motivation into it seems unnecessary.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

We know we need some fresh DT content to discuss when we begin relating JP's bodybuilding to his musical relationship with MP.

[gm5k]

Seems like JP said someone introduced him to power lifting, and he tried it and loved it. 

That seems fine.  Any attempt to introduce any band dynamic motivation into it seems unnecessary.

My goodness talk about reaching for a story 

We really do need some DT news... 

[paulstfu]

So today exactly 5 years ago, MP left the theater.

He's returning any time from now, guys, the 5 year thing has come to an end.

[Lynxo]

We know we need some fresh DT content to discuss when we begin relating JP's bodybuilding to his musical relationship with MP.

Yeah, that was the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. I can't imagine anyone working out would even SLIGHTLY have in mind that this is good because he's not agreeing as much as he used to with a close friend. Let alone JP of all people - probably one of the calmest and nicest people in the music industry.

[Mladen]

Wow, yeah, it was five years ago yesterday. Nobody remembers it anymore. 

[Orbert]

I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news.  It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).

[pcs90]

Nobody remembers it anymore. 

I wish that was true. I still see comments about this all the time, sadly.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news.  It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).

I remember being logged in on his forum right when he posted his 'press release'. And I remember not being surprised by it......

[cramx3]

I sadly remember exactly where I was, in a mcdonalds in NYC chilling before my work shift started and my friend texted me saying "you hear about DT?" and I immediately logged on here and was shocked.

[sneakyblueberry]

I won't forget that day purely because a friend of mine, who was diagnosed with leukaemia the same time I was, passed away.  I found out that morning that he passed, and then found out on FB that Portnoy left DT, which was unthinkable at the time, it was like being in a weird dream.

[Orbert]

I shouldn't have characterized everyone who can recall the event as "fanboys".  I actually remember reading about it here on DTF, and thought for sure that it was a bad joke.  I mean, Mike had been doing the thing with Avenged Sevenfold, and there was speculation that he probably thought it was cool playing with a younger, crazier band.  Who wouldn't?  Then came the announcement that he and DT had parted ways, and I just assumed it was someone who'd taken things to an extreme conclusion.  But there was no way it was actually true, right?

It was indeed a dramatic turn of events.

[SystematicThought]

I remember I was lying in bed and I got the chills when I read it. Although, I wasn't really shocked by it. I laugh now at my reaction, but it was really weird. I also remember JP that night on his forum talking to people. I think that was the last time he did that....

I also remember the week prior, I had made a thread about which member was most likely to pull a Kevin Moore and leave the band.