5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[paulstfu]

I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news.  It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).

[cramx3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPQ4PF0K0s&list=PL44C0BFAC657F4126&index=5

Well James certainly misses MP

[Kotowboy]

I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news.  It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).

I clearly remember waking up - checking my phone for new messages or emails etc and I had a text from a fellow DT fan who simply said " MP has quit DT ! "

I remember being bemused about it but it wasn't a shock or anything. I spent the day then following the news online.

And then all the bitching began and I was so completely over MP at that point.

[Madman Shepherd]

I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"

I was shocked.

Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"

Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit.  So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day. 

A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"

Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name.  I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it."  I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share.  Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater. 

[KevShmev]

I just remember getting home later that evening, eventually getting online, coming here, and wondering why there were so many people logged on to the forum at once.

[Darkstarshades]

MP and the other guys should make another LTE album and have a song named "5 YEAR WARNING" and laugh at all this together with a beer (Not MP, he gets diet coke)

[Rodni Demental]

Hahaha...

[pcs90]

MP and the other guys should make another LTE album and have a song named "5 YEAR WARNING" and laugh at all this together with a beer (Not MP, he gets diet coke)

hahaha! That would be great. In all seriousness, JR and I think JP are both on good terms with him, so it doesn't seem to unreasonable to hope for another LTE album at least!

[Rodni Demental]

It's probably a lot more likely than him playing with DT again. I think we might see some new LTE one day but who knows when that might happen.

[As I Am]

There's no argument over who the leaders were when MP was in the band - it's pretty undisputed that it was JP and MP. But the reason why JL was brought in to the mix is because there was at least one or two times where an argument between MP and JL got heated enough that it almost resulted in a fist fight.

Yeah.  I understand that.

I will clarify a bit more on the go at it and JP lifting weights.

It is more of a mental thing.  You are butting heads with somebody (even productively) and then it starts to get a little more tense than usual.  Most likely because it is just building off past differences.  So sometimes one feels the need to channel that into physical conditioning.  Partly for release and in the back of the mind, to discourage something from ever going beyond words.

Kind of like "if you want peace, prepare for war" adage.  It doesn't mean you are ready to "throw down" or "go at it".  Many times, it means you are trying to discourage it.

But I'm not claiming any of this as fact.  Just tossing something out there for thought.

All things being equal, I'll always listen to SS.

[Kotowboy]

I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"

I was shocked.

Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"

Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit.  So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day. 

A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"

Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name.  I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it."  I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share.  Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.

Someone asked JP in an interview if they would need to change the name and he just laughed and said " No. We own the name. ".

[Cyclopssss]

I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"

I was shocked.

Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"

Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit.  So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day. 

A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"

Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name.  I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it."  I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share.  Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.

\

I surfed to the MP site and I think I just sat there and stared at the screen for ten minutes or so after reading it and then decided I needed to read it again to believe it. The rest of the day went by in a haze.

[Stadler]

I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"

I was shocked.

Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"

Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit.  So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day. 

A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"

Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name.  I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it."  I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share.  Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.

Someone asked JP in an interview if they would need to change the name and he just laughed and said " No. We own the name. ".

I don't think I'm talking out of school here, since I think all of this was put out there publicly in one form or another.  Neither Mike or John owned the name itself personally, either in whole or in part.  There is/was a corporation that owned the name and the various licenses and rights.   And at the time of parting, there were negotiations as to what would go where and who would get what FROM THE CORPORATION.  Almost all (all?) corporations have a organization agreement that covers this kind of eventuality in some form or another.  The problem is when there is on-going revenue from before and after the 'break' and that is where the key negotiations happen.  And I haven't even touched on the "legacy" aspect (would ADTOE have sold as much without MP's contributions leading up to that point?  This was the basis of the suit between Ozzy and Sabbath a couple years ago). 

[Kotowboy]

I can't believe someone would be petty / greedy enough to claim that " Their first album without me sold x amount due to brand recognition alone and because I was in the band that created that brand

- i'm therefore entitled to y amount "

Unless it was specifically stated in a contract somewhere that after any split or dissolution - that each member gets a percentage based on the brand recognition / contributions leading up til then.

I can't see that standing up in court at all otherwise -just on the basis of " I was in the band when they were famous therefore I want royalties from future albums ".

[goo-goo]

I can't believe someone would be petty / greedy enough to claim that " Their first album without me sold x amount due to brand recognition alone and because I was in the band that created that brand

- i'm therefore entitled to y amount "

Unless it was specifically stated in a contract somewhere that after any split or dissolution - that each member gets a percentage based on the brand recognition / contributions leading up til then.

I can't see that standing up in court at all otherwise -just on the basis of " I was in the band when they were famous therefore I want royalties from future albums ".

Based on the previous history with former members, I'm ASSuming MP got a lump sum (like DS and KM). But I guess because MP has credits as a producer, written songs, publishing rights, longevity, etc. I think that's where it got a bit more complicated in a sense that MP wanted/deserved more money. Again, this is all speculation on my part.

[Kotowboy]

MP will always get royalties for songs he was involved with though PRS and MCPS and PPL and whatever acronym you want to use... It's just the law.

I did music business lessons on my degree course and I don't ever remember anything like " you're entitled to royalties on future music without you based solely on brand recognition ".

More like : " If you have no credits - you have no royalties ".

[Cyclopssss]

I´m willing to bet that he put his foot down on all the old live bootleg recordings in the vault. You want the name? Fine. But you´re not gonna release anything from the vault. Something like that. Bands splits are a pain in the ass man.

[goo-goo]

I´m willing to bet that he put his foot down on all the old live bootleg recordings in the vault. You want the name? Fine. But you´re not gonna release anything from the vault. Something like that. Bands splits are a pain in the ass man.

And I guess this is where us the fans, really suffered...The official bootlegs that may never be released.

Would love to see if DT and MP can agree to something for the boots to be released in the future. Something like MP 20% and DT 80% (with the boots that include MP of course).

[vtgrad]

I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news.  It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).

I remember being logged in on his forum right when he posted his 'press release'. And I remember not being surprised by it......

I was on MP's forum as well when the press release was released; I remember being disappointed in all parties involved honestly.  Thinking "can't these guys, that have been together so long, work things out between themselves?"

Then on the way home from work, I realized that there may be no more music; THAT is what bothered me.  As I've said many times, I'm simply thrilled that my favorite band is still making records.  All the other feelings are just academic IMO.

[Kotowboy]

But I already Put Out My Press Release ! !

[ytserush]

I'll concur completely with TAC - the last two are considerably better than SC and BCSL.  CONSIDERABLY.

I'll say what I said to Mike himself on the PN at Sea cruise... I think the split was best for both of them.  For the band, they got to continue doing what 80% of them wanted to - continue working together, continue to keep the brand alive, continue their momentum (hello... two grammy nominations, festival headlining this summer), and not fade into obscurity through a 5 year break.  It's not like they have enough mass appeal that 5 years wouldn't have had some kind of impact.  Think they would've headlined all these festivals anytime soon if they'd been gone for 5 years?

Mike got to do what he wanted to do... flex his own creative muscle and let those juices flow.  If he felt stale, the last 5 years have given him what he wanted (with mixed results)... NM Solo, Transatlantic, Flying Colors AMob, Winery Dogs, PSMS, Bigelf, and a handful of other studio contributions.  Not to mention all the touring that went along with those acts.  No way he would've been able to do 1/2 of that if he stayed with DT.

Also, let's not forget the positive impact from and for Mike Mangini.

So, was Mike right ... yes - for himself.  He wasn't completely right.  IMO, the band is in a far better spot now than they could've hoped to have been by "re-starting" right now.

As to the OP,

My favorite thing on DTF is when commenters confuse their own personal opinions with the "consensus" of the entire body of DT's fans.

Exactly.

I think they are both in a better place now. Both sides are doing what they've always wanted to do.

I still think Mike became burnt out with continuing to steward the band. It just got to be too much and he needed a break from that.

I still remember leaving Radio City Music Hall April 1, 2006 and thinking "This is it. There's no way Mike will top this." It never got any better than that and it almost seems unfair to expect that it would.  What was left to prove?

[Stadler]

I can't believe someone would be petty / greedy enough to claim that " Their first album without me sold x amount due to brand recognition alone and because I was in the band that created that brand

- i'm therefore entitled to y amount "

Unless it was specifically stated in a contract somewhere that after any split or dissolution - that each member gets a percentage based on the brand recognition / contributions leading up til then.

I can't see that standing up in court at all otherwise -just on the basis of " I was in the band when they were famous therefore I want royalties from future albums ".

Respectfully, I think you are oversimplifying it a little bit, and to your later post, "royalties" are not the only way to recoup cash on artistic releases.  There is publishing, there are album royalties, there are single royalties, there are performance royalties... go look at "Dynasty", by Kiss.  On the song "Charisma", it is credited to "Gene Simmons/Howard Marks".   Howard Marks - an advertising guy and business manager - said the word to Gene, Gene wrote the (entire) song, then, in both credit for the inspiration, and to pay for other services rendered, Gene put Marks' name on the song and so he gets publishing dollars to this day.  The Ozzy suit - which was settled with Tony, by the way - was for 50% of the trademark, and all proceeds earned by that trademark following the '97 reunion.   That (could be) different than "royalties" which could apply to many different things.

The thing is, these things are impossible to figure out without looking at the agreements themselves, because, basically, the parties can agree on anything between themselves. 

[Enalya]

Every bit of this.   IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is.  BCSL was not really much better.

Beg you pardon? TCOT?
It's the first album I bought and still am in love with. Opinions, opinions.

(Excuse my offtopicness : p)

[progrockman]

So far the split seems to have produced better results than worse for DT. Though for MP not so much. Winery dogs is a decent album and has a cool hard rock sound though I found the album songs lacking quite abit.

[Kotowboy]

The thing is, these things are impossible to figure out without looking at the agreements themselves, because, basically, the parties can agree on anything between themselves.

Right. But. Is there a precedent for basically just saying i'm entitled to x amount after I left the band despite having no more artistic input based on what i've contributed up til then ?

[TAC]

I would love to read the DT/MP agreement.

[jammindude]

Every bit of this.   IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is.  BCSL was not really much better.

Beg you pardon? TCOT?
It's the first album I bought and still am in love with. Opinions, opinions.

(Excuse my offtopicness : p)

Nothing but love for TCOT.   My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich.   Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.

EDIT:  Really, SC and BCSL are the only two albums of the 12 where I don't love almost the entire album.

[TAC]

Nothing but love for TCOT.   My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich.   Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.

For me, it's TCOT and TBOT. That's all this album has to really offer.

[Madman Shepherd]

I would love to read the DT/MP agreement.

You, me, and almost everyone else. 

One thing we do know is that MP isn't allowed to sell anything DT related as far as music goes.  He said as much on his message board which is why he doesn't sell drum cams anymore.  Occasionally he will give some away if you buy so much of his other DVDs. 

[Rodni Demental]

Every bit of this.   IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is.  BCSL was not really much better.

Beg you pardon? TCOT?
It's the first album I bought and still am in love with. Opinions, opinions.

(Excuse my offtopicness : p)

Nothing but love for TCOT.   My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich.   Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.

BC&SL represents everything I love about DT (was my first album so that explains it no doubt ). I was blown away by the massive compositions, and being my first exposure to the band I didn't have any ideas about how it 'ought to be' or that this sounded like filler and this part was weaker than that part. The whole thing was an amazing experience, and then I got onto the covers which was weird and a bit different but still really cool. I'd love them to do more bonus material like the covers and instrumental discs. Also, when going back through DTs discog, I didn't find another album as 'epic' and 'massive' as BC&SL until I got to SDOIT which probably has become my favourite album. Maybe TOT almost falls into this category too. (I pretty much went backwards through time when listening, which means yes WDADU was the last album I heard). 

I like when the music's not afraid to do whatever, drag it out as long as you want, throw in some ambience or chuck an extended intro or outro in there, who cares about time or restrictions! First disc of Six Degrees is perfect for this and I feel they haven't done anything like it since BC&SL. So if the new album goes for much longer tracks again, I will be pretty happy about that. 

[Enalya]

Nothing but love for TCOT.   My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich.   Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.

Haha, I like the way you put that. I see. You don't like Wither? The only songs I don't dig of BC&SL are A Rite of Passage and The Best of Times. But the rest makes that up for 10 times.

Ontopic: I think it's irrelevant if he was right or not, but for the sake of an answer: I don't think so. The band seems really happy together and some great songs were created. I don't sense the lack of creativety or energy, which Mangini seems to have renewed.

[Stadler]

The thing is, these things are impossible to figure out without looking at the agreements themselves, because, basically, the parties can agree on anything between themselves.

Right. But. Is there a precedent for basically just saying i'm entitled to x amount after I left the band despite having no more artistic input based on what i've contributed up til then ?

Of course there is.  For a while (though not presently) that was the case for Ace Frehley.   It's pretty well documented that he was still part of the partnership for a while, and was receiving monies, until he decided to take a buyout.

There's no magic to this.  I am sure - though I can't immediately call up an example - that there are bands like Yes (this is NOT an example, though, I know this) where there are two original members, and one amicably decides they don't really want to do this anymore and so doesn't contribute to the current recording and touring, but still takes a piece of the overall "Band Name, LLC".   Wouldn't be surprised if KK Downing was in this position, or Malcolm Young, or Jon Lord's estate.    Believe it or not, I wouldn't be surprised if Roger Waters makes SOMETHING on the post-Final Cut Floyd.   Peter Gabriel is in this position with respect to the material up through and including "The Lamb...", as well as the re-releases of catalogue material; it's tricky here, because while he doesn't get a piece of "Invisible Touch" (for example) he is reaping the benefits indirectly.  You can't tell me that not one person on the planet has loved "In Too Deep" and went out and bought "Selling England..." either on purpose or by mistake.   Fish still has say on the pre-Season's End Marillion material (I know this isn't directly on point, since I don't believe Fish or Pete make anything off the current material).

I can't stress enough:  the parties can agree to whatever they want to agree (within reason).  "Common sense" or "fair" doesn't play in one iota, except in the sense that they do when the parties are in the room discussing and agreeing.  It is foolhardy for us to look at a situation and say "well, common sense says..." or "it would be fair if...".   These things do not exist.

[jammindude]

Nothing but love for TCOT.   My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich.   Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.

Haha, I like the way you put that. I see. You don't like Wither? The only songs I don't dig of BC&SL are A Rite of Passage and The Best of Times. But the rest makes that up for 10 times.

Ontopic: I think it's irrelevant if he was right or not, but for the sake of an answer: I don't think so. The band seems really happy together and some great songs were created. I don't sense the lack of creativety or energy, which Mangini seems to have renewed.

I like Wither OK, but it got old on repeated listenings.     I did say that it was an improvement over SC....which is, really....not good. 

I guess BCSL just tends to sink to the bottom based on the strength of the other DT releases.   Even FII has a greater ratio of really strong material. 

[Kotowboy]

Even FII has a greater ratio of really strong material.

Hey we have a new poster on the forums ! Tell me - what do you think of Star Trek Nemesis ?

[Calvin6s]

From The Dude to The Neighborhood.  From "whatever man" to Mr. PC.  From adult themed to young child themed.

Avatar changes just mess with people.  Even when you know it is the same person, there is just a whole different vibe.