5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[Madman Shepherd]

Great post, and it brings a lot to the table for someone like me, who hasn't had the opportunity to see them live.  I've only gotten to see DT once, but I've been a fan of the band since the I&W days.

How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years?  Honest question.  Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show.   Dream Theater have never played closer than almost 3 hours from me but I see them once per leg.  I guess they played an hour and a half from me but that was 8 years before I started listening to them on the I&W tour. 

If I can see one show a year within an hours drive by a band I at least moderately like then I consider myself lucky...and I do live in a metropolitan area of several hundred thousand people. 

But if they could bring back the rotating setlists, that would be sweet. 

I admit, the rotating setlists could be great, especially if you release a bonus disc of things that weren't at a specific show (or an official bootleg) BUT...I personally have never benefited from it other than that.  Same with the vast majority of fans.  Sure there is a segment of the fans that went to more than one show but the majority are satisfied with one (or can't afford more than one or can't get the time off of work) and I personally have gotten a little pissed knowing the show before or after me got songs I wanted to hear and I was stuck with what I consider B-list material. 

What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?

[KevShmev]

I guess we have to look forward now of years of posts basically saying, "Yeah, but MP did more," no matter what the band does.  They are in a no-win situation with those tiny percentage of fans, but unlike their former drummer, I suspect the current members of Dream Theater are good about focusing on the mostly positive fans instead of worrying about the tinny tiny number of ones who seemingly will never be happy now. 

What part of "still a first day buyer" (me) and "still my favorite band" (Scotty) are you missing?   Again, only for me, but it's not as if I am "unhappy", or negative.   I'm responding to the people that seem to want to ignore any possible differences, and seem to want to denigrate the idea that some of those differences may in fact be important to people.  And in part (and I suspect this is where the animosity is coming from) I am sticking up for the things that Mike did.  I won't sugar coat it: for all his foibles, I admire him, and consider him a fan who "gets it" perhaps a bit more than those that remain in the band. 

If you love it, and are happy and think it is better, I well and truly could not be happier for you.  I'm not calling you a fan boy, I'm not implying the band should ignore your feelings, and I'm not saying you are wrong.  Why can't those of us that are in the middle get the same courtesy?   Is it that hard?

Nope, not at all.  I guess, for me, I used to be "that guy," who was too critical of the band for little things, instead of just enjoying the hell out of them and focusing on the positive.  I've made a concerted effort over the last x-number of years to be much more positive in general, including when discussing music online, although I still have my moments.

Referring to your other post (no need to quote it, too), I understand how extra things can make you a bigger fan of a band whose music you already love; I get it, I really do.  I just think some are holding the band almost hostage to their expectations, just because they aren't doing every little thing that Mike Portnoy used to, which no one in their right mind ever thought they would do (regardless of how JR or JP might have said they would).  Why not focus on the positives? 

[Calvin6s]

Why not focus on the positives?

Probably because we aren't allowed to.  Instead of just accepting MP's great contributions, we have to hear about how he is a buffoon or poison on some level.  His contributions are overrated.  Mangini plays circles around him.

It happened to a lesser degree with Sherinian / Rudess.

Then when somebody steps up to say "now wait a minute.  Portnoy had quite a bit going for him and I'd by lying if I said I won't miss him in DT."  If anything, that's the positive view.

[hefdaddy42]

How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years?  Honest question.  Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show. 

Yes, and yes.

What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?

Bootlegs, videos, whatever.  If they do it, I can hear it or see it, whether I attend or not.

Plus, the excitement of hearing about setlists on the forums.  Excitement and anticipation over what might be played.  Enthusiasm over some weird thing that happened one night.  All of that is gone now.

[Madman Shepherd]

Why not focus on the positives?

Probably because we aren't allowed to.  Instead of just accepting MP's great contributions, we have to hear about how he is a buffoon or poison on some level.  His contributions are overrated.  Mangini plays circles around him.

Are we reading the same message board? 

How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years?  Honest question.  Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show. 

Yes, and yes.

What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?

Bootlegs, videos, whatever.  If they do it, I can hear it or see it, whether I attend or not.

Plus, the excitement of hearing about setlists on the forums.  Excitement and anticipation over what might be played.  Enthusiasm over some weird thing that happened one night.  All of that is gone now.

Ah yes.  I do miss that, too.  Not as much to the point of wanting rotating setlists back but that definitely was pretty cool. 

Then again, I think anything would be an improvement over the summer festival setlist but knowing my luck they would take out the few songs I want to hear and replace it with more mediocre stuff. 

[Kotowboy]

Mangini may play circles around Portnoy and be a nicer person all around - but his solos are boring as shit and his playing is robotic, clinical and soul-less.

[hefdaddy42]

That setlist was really weird.  Not just in terms of songs included, but also of song order.

But hey, whatever.

[pcs90]

Mangini may play circles around Portnoy and be a nicer person all around - but his solos are boring as shit and his playing is robotic, clinical and soul-less.

I love his solos, at least on the first tour when they were all different. Certainly much more interesting than Portnoy's. I always skip Portnoy's solos when they come up because they all sound the same.

[Madman Shepherd]

Mangini may play circles around Portnoy and be a nicer person all around - but his solos are boring as shit and his playing is robotic, clinical and soul-less.

I don't get this at all. 

The common mantra is that Mangini is a better technical player and Portnoy has more feel in his playing. 

I think thats bullshit. 

I think we can all agree that Mangini probably has more technical knowledge.  After all, he was a freakin' professor but that does not necessarily translate to being more technical all around.  I'm not a drummer but to my ears, Portnoy has done some incredibly technical things which are at least on par with Mangini. 

On that same token, I think Mangini plays with plenty of feeling, at least on par with Portnoy.  Some songs one might best the other and yeah, I think Mangini can probably explain in clinical terms what he is playing better than Portnoy, but I get sick of the divisive categorization of each. 

[ToT-147]

If you're going to attack someone's opinion, the very least, the base level of common courtesy, is to at least get the thing you're attacking correct.    ONE (and I while I don't speak for Scotty, I don't think I am far off his base either), this is NOT a case of "never enough".   Not even close.  We've both commented on what they have done "right" (for lack of a better word), and have been clear that they are still A favorite, but not THE favorite.   TWO, Scotty, Orbert and I have all explained - I think in good detail - what a "one of many" really means, so your refusal to even acknowledge someone else's position (note I did not say "agree with it") says a lot more about you than us.  Several of us on "this side" of the line you insist on drawing even though we - and Hef - have said there is no need for that line have been clear:  we still buy the records.  We appreciate (well, I do, I don't know if any of the others mentioned this) the "Holiday" release (though not being much of a downloader, I can't resist the opportunity to note that hard CDs are best).

I was being extreme and sarcastic, but only in order to balance the things a little.. Obviously I don't think you're those fans MP was referring in NE, not at least in a "pure" way (or the way MP had in mind), but you are them in somehow.. You WERE complaining about them don't doing all the meticulous things MP did, seeing the negative side of it (as KevShmev said), instead of enjoying the good stuff they still do or care about doing (the things on my list, but most of all, the music)..

I'm not trying to convince anyone or censor anyone's opinion.. That's just my way to express myself when I see something I fully disagree with.. Nothing personal.. But the music is the most important thing to me (I know now that also to vtgrad, Hef, and we're probably vast majority on that one).. Yeah, the music is not all though.. And I'm the first to appreciate the things MP did in that aspect.. He has even inspired me not only in my music, but also in the way of writing my literature (structurally speaking).. btw, I say he because I know he was the main man behind it, although not the only one..

I'm not drawing any lines.. That's what you think, but I'm not.. Just putting some things in order.. They DID stuff they didn't have supposed to do.. Anyway, OTOH, who are we to say what they should do?.. They've given and still giving us their music.. That music that is all that makes them not one of many, but one of a kind band..

I didn't know they said such a thing.. Someone has the link to that interview?..

As I was saying about "understanding the argument before you attack it", I have repeated that here at least three times.  It is absolutely on record, and it was said point blank by James LaBrie in addition to the references here to JP saying it.   This is part of the beef, since he CLEARLY had the biggest axe to grind with Mike, and his comments were clearly intended to, if not berate Mike, then at least minimize the level of effort and contribution of the things he did (even if they didn't matter to you, any specific fan).   And yet, they must be of SOME consequence, because they didn't deliver.

 

What this has to do with any of those arguments or with the discussion I don't have a clue.. I honestly didn't know JLB said that.. That's why I was asking, not 'attacking'..

[Darkstarshades]

Oh please, gimme a break.

You always find something to criticize, even in the MP days.
Sure, rotating setlists, cool. Some people heard that their X favorite song was played the night before, and assist to a show filled with excitement only to find out that their song is not played, I would be rather pissed off.

Having a fixed setlist is better, you know what's coming.
However, I agree that the "fixed" setlist should have some changes, specially for second legs.

[Stadler]

Great post, and it brings a lot to the table for someone like me, who hasn't had the opportunity to see them live.  I've only gotten to see DT once, but I've been a fan of the band since the I&W days.

How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years?  Honest question.  Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show.   Dream Theater have never played closer than almost 3 hours from me but I see them once per leg.  I guess they played an hour and a half from me but that was 8 years before I started listening to them on the I&W tour. 

Fan since '91, seen over 400 shows in my life, etc. etc., and only seen them once, on the Prog Nation tour in Philly.  They even played literally across the street from my apartment in Philly on the ADTOE tour (I'm not joking.  The doors to the theater are about 500 feet from my front door), but I couldn't go, because sometimes duty calls.  I was in Erie (300 miles away) for work and couldn't go.  Sometimes life gets in the way, especially if you have kids.

I admit, the rotating setlists could be great, especially if you release a bonus disc of things that weren't at a specific show (or an official bootleg) BUT...I personally have never benefited from it other than that.  Same with the vast majority of fans.  Sure there is a segment of the fans that went to more than one show but the majority are satisfied with one (or can't afford more than one or can't get the time off of work) and I personally have gotten a little pissed knowing the show before or after me got songs I wanted to hear and I was stuck with what I consider B-list material. 

What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?

Personally, I like the edge it brings.  My days of seeing four or five shows a tour (with any band) are long gone, but I find that bands with a static set are entertaining, but almost never... dangerous, for lack of a better word.  There are exceptions (Kiss on the shed tour last summer; same flicking songs they've been playing since the reunion, but Gene's "Flight harness" didn't work, and you could see the band get pissed and kick it into overdrive.  I've seen them too many times to count, and the finale was one of the best because they clearly felt like they had something to prove.)   I like the train wrecks.   I like just not knowing what's next.  I like the gamble of hearing "that song" or not.   

[Stadler]

Nope, not at all.  I guess, for me, I used to be "that guy," who was too critical of the band for little things, instead of just enjoying the hell out of them and focusing on the positive.  I've made a concerted effort over the last x-number of years to be much more positive in general, including when discussing music online, although I still have my moments.

Referring to your other post (no need to quote it, too), I understand how extra things can make you a bigger fan of a band whose music you already love; I get it, I really do.  I just think some are holding the band almost hostage to their expectations, just because they aren't doing every little thing that Mike Portnoy used to, which no one in their right mind ever thought they would do (regardless of how JR or JP might have said they would).  Why not focus on the positives?

And I do.  That's the point you're missing.  I'm NOT being critical, and I'm not holding anyone hostage (with one exception).   It's not as if I like "This Is The Life" 6% less because there is no Ytsejam recording of it.  It's still one of my favorite songs of all time, ANY band, not just DT.   I still have more DT CDs than any other band I listen to, and it isn't as if I am going to be selling them any time soon.   If I can, I will be going to see them this next tour, because the planets seem like they will be aligning to let that happen.   It's just pointing out the little differences that separate a band from being "NUMBER ONE!" to being "FIRMLY, 100% IN THE TOP TEN".   It's a fan who loves to deal in nuance pointing out that nuance with one of his favorite bands.

The one exception IS the stuff James said.  I've already copped to being a big fan of Mike, not going to apologize for that, and I felt like James' comments were less about the fans than they were thinly veiled attacks at Mike, and I resented a little that he would use the fans to do that.   He could have been gracious and say something obligatory like "Look, no one can replace Mike, and we're not going to try, but those of you that liked what the rest of us did and do, you're going to get that much more!  RAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!", or better yet, be honest and say "Look, for me, it's a relief, because he rode my ass hard and said some things over the years.  I'm not personally that broken up about it."   But no, he had to take that shot.   

[hefdaddy42]

To which "shot" are you referring?  I don't remember anything really negative said by him.

[Stadler]

I was being extreme and sarcastic, but only in order to balance the things a little.. Obviously I don't think you're those fans MP was referring in NE, not at least in a "pure" way (or the way MP had in mind), but you are them in somehow.. You WERE complaining about them don't doing all the meticulous things MP did, seeing the negative side of it (as KevShmev said), instead of enjoying the good stuff they still do or care about doing (the things on my list, but most of all, the music)..

How exactly do you know what I enjoy or not?  How do you know the music doesn't (now or then) come first?   Because it does.  it always does.  But I like a LOT of music.  I like rock, prog, country, metal, grunge, classical... too much to listen to it all.  Literally.   I even like One Direction, Demi Lovato and Katy Perry.  There is too much to dig into for everything I like.   So there are sometimes little things that separate.   When Mike showed up at Ed Trunk's radio show with his cassette bootlegs of obscure shows he has (I remember at least one pre-2112 Rush boot) that was ME.  Metaphorically.  So while you (wrongly) see this as "black and white, negative and positive", I'm seeing this as nuance on a continuum.  And if you want to respect my opinion, you have to judge it in that light, not yours. 

I'm not trying to convince anyone or censor anyone's opinion.. That's just my way to express myself when I see something I fully disagree with.. Nothing personal.. But the music is the most important thing to me (I know now that also to vtgrad, Hef, and we're probably vast majority on that one).. Yeah, the music is not all though.. And I'm the first to appreciate the things MP did in that aspect.. He has even inspired me not only in my music, but also in the way of writing my literature (structurally speaking).. btw, I say he because I know he was the main man behind it, although not the only one..

It's not the disagreement.  I live for the disagreement (read the P/R threads).  It's never the disagreement.  I just got my scruff up when it looked like it DID come down to the personal.   I admire those that continue on as a No. 1 Fan after the change, because sometimes I wish I could do that.   This isn't the first time that a member has changed in a band I love and the band seemed to lose something.  For me, that IS the music; if they put out Images and Words tomorrow (no jokes please!) I'd be in 100%, but I don't think they did that.   I feel like I can tell the lack of MP presense on the new material, but since MM is a very high quality drummer (I don't go in for "better" or "worse", only "do I like it more or less") it's still very pleasing to the ears, and they still have LaBrie, who I think is the heart and soul of the DT sound. 

I'm not drawing any lines.. That's what you think, but I'm not.. Just putting some things in order.. They DID stuff they didn't have supposed to do.. Anyway, OTOH, who are we to say what they should do?.. They've given and still giving us their music.. That music that is all that makes them not one of many, but one of a kind band..

And not for me, but not because "the music doesn't matter", but because there is simply too much I like.   I get lost in Genesis as easily as I do in DT.  I've never thought about it, much, but I guess it is more in the general vibe than any specific song.  I can lose my self for hours in "Going For The One" by Yes (my favorite album of all time).  I put it on repeat and lose myself.  If that's not "about the music" I don't know what is.  But if you're going to invest $250 (or more) per album cycle, you can't do that for every band that's out there, and I'd rather pay $20 for a DT CD when it has a bonus 5.1 mix and a bonus disk of covers, than $20 for an Ozzy CD that has re-tracked bass lines and is missing key (in my view) songs from a legendary guitarist that died well before his time.   Does this make sense?

What this has to do with any of those arguments or with the discussion I don't have a clue.. I honestly didn't know JLB said that.. That's why I was asking, not 'attacking'..

See above; I answered this for KevSchmev.

[Stadler]

To which "shot" are you referring?  I don't remember anything really negative said by him.

I took his attitude - that it was no big deal, that the other four would step up and fill the void without worry - to be a tacit dig at Mike that what he did was either not important or not that big an effort like Mike would sometimes make it out to be.  There's at least one video interview out there where he said it, and it just seemed so... gratuitous to me at the time.

Background: I firmly believe that James was absolutely thrilled beyond belief that Mike left.  I think he showed some of his frustrations with Mike on the SC Documentary (when Mike seemed to be telling James what and how to sing) and we know of the quote implying that Mike toyed with the idea of what DT would be like with a different singer.  I think of all the members, Mike leaving was a breath of fresh air for James, and this attitude was, in my opinion, thinly if at all disguised in some of the interviews immediately after.  I also believe - with no facts to back it up - that the idea that "we already committed to Mike Mangini, and can't go back on that" came at least in part from James, who knew and worked with Mangini extensively before his invite to the audition. 

[TAC]

I said on Day 1 that the biggest winner with MP leaving was James. And he DID take a thinly veiled shot at MP. No question. It's was only natural. (and no, I'm not searching the internet for instances). Frankly, as much as I loved MP, I don't blame James. And still, James has been good about the whole thing.

I didn't read too much into the SC clip. Not for anything, but James is incredible on SC.

[hefdaddy42]

I never read anything said by James as a shot at MP, thinly veiled or otherwise.

Example, maybe?

[TAC]

I never read anything said by James as a shot at MP, thinly veiled or otherwise.

Example, maybe?

I modified my post to say that I'm not searching the internet of the 1000 or so interviews James has done since the split.


EDIT:

OK, here's one.
https://rocknewsdesk.com/world-news/labrie-dream-theater-is-better-without-portnoy/2496/

"It's where things should be on stage where it's not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That doesn't sound like a jab to me, just cold sincerity. It's clear James had been feeling that way for quite some years before Portnoy's departure and finally had the opportunity of speaking his mind. I do agree with him with the spotlight thing, which was been mentioned many times in this thread. Even in Neal Morse shows, where Mike Portnoy is just 'the drummer', he is pretty much at the frontline with his playing style, his stage nuances, his body language, etc.

Mike is a guy with enormous charisma and personality, and that shows on stage. He's the guy that speaks, the 'open minded musician', the social media personality, the man that makes most interviews and the guy that is constantly speaking to his fans and feeding them with content. In the MP Warriors world, it's cool to love everything he puts out because he is a hard worker and he seems like a pretty cool guy to hang with. He was probably the biggest man in Dream Theater from 2007 - 2010 in an 'influential' point of view, so that kinda fell apart at the end because the weights weren't balanced anymore. I still insist that their peak as a band was 2006, with their 20th Anniversary World Tour and Score. Portnoy was doing his usual thing of being everywhere, but you knew the other 4 guys were working their assess off as well. Not to say they didn't do so from 2007 - 2010, it's just that they weren't...there, you know? I saw both Chaos in Motion and Black Clouds shows and it did feel a lot like 'The MP Band Experience' to me. It was still DT, I still loved the shows, but it was kind of awkward at times. It's a nice chemistry with Neal Morse for example, but I can see that clashing big time with James LaBrie.

[pcs90]

"It's where things should be on stage where it's not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."

Well, what's wrong with that? A lot of fans have also felt the same way. There was an interview with JR where he called MP the "Dream Theater Police", and basically said they feel much more free without him. I thought that was a lot more direct...though I agree 100% with him either way.

[TAC]

That doesn't sound like a jab to me, just cold sincerity. It's clear James had been feeling that way for quite some years before Portnoy's departure and finally had the opportunity of speaking his mind.

Exactly. But he's really been the only one to show this "cold sincerity". JP won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.

"It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."

Well, what's wrong with that? A lot of fans have also felt the same way. There was an interview with JR where he called MP the "Dream Theater Police", and basically said they feel much more free without him. I thought that was a lot more direct...though I agree 100% with him either way.

There's nothing wrong with it. But if James had no axe to grind, there's no way he says that.

[hefdaddy42]

Let's look at all of it in context.

"We were talking about how everything is much more balanced and everyone is in their role or their position.

"It's where things should be on stage where it's not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever.

"But that's Mike's character: he's big and he wants to be in the limelight. The problem with that is it takes away from the bigger picture: the band as a unit.

"A lot of people have been commenting since we started out on this tour. They're saying, 'It feels more like watching a band, with somebody up front singing and interacting, and everybody else just back there.

"There's always moments when the spotlight's on the other members, and it should be. But it creates more of a balance.

"We were talking about it and saying, 'You know, this is really cool – it feels like a unit.' So it's a lot better."

He's not saying "Mike was an asshole."  He is comparing the way things are now to the way things were at one time, and is clearly more excited about how they are now.

In any group of 5, some will be closer than others.  It's clear that JR and JP were closer to MP than JM or JLB were.  That's OK, and it's OK that the current members looked at the loss of MP as an opportunity, and hit the future with positivity and enthusiasm, and eventually excitement for the new status quo.  That doesn't really denigrate what they achieved with MP, or MP as an individual.

[TAC]

Let's look at all of it in context.

"We were talking about how everything is much more balanced and everyone is in their role or their position.

"It's where things should be on stage where it's not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever.

"But that's Mike's character: he's big and he wants to be in the limelight. The problem with that is it takes away from the bigger picture: the band as a unit.

"A lot of people have been commenting since we started out on this tour. They're saying, 'It feels more like watching a band, with somebody up front singing and interacting, and everybody else just back there.

"There's always moments when the spotlight's on the other members, and it should be. But it creates more of a balance.

"We were talking about it and saying, 'You know, this is really cool – it feels like a unit.' So it's a lot better."

He's not saying "Mike was an asshole."  He is comparing the way things are now to the way things were at one time, and is clearly more excited about how they are now.

Well, he didn't come right out and say that Mike is an asshole, no. But like I said, there's a way to word a comparison a hell of a lot more diplomatically than he did.

[King Postwhore]

Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it.  James said it in an interview for that reason.  It was a shot. 

[TAC]

Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it.  James said it in an interview for that reason.  It was a shot.

You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.

[Enalya]

Excuse me, what a soap.
Ever heard your 'friends' gossiping? Don't know about you, but that exceeds every word James has said about MP in 5 years.

[Mladen]

I've always found James very diplomatic in his interviews. There are only a few examples where you can interpret his words as only slightly "venomous".

[hefdaddy42]

Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it.  James said it in an interview for that reason.  It was a shot.

You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.

But he didn't say anything untrue.  He is describing the situation.  And he isn't just saying that he wishes MP didn't act the way he did on stage; he is describing it in comparison to the current situation, which apparently works better for all four other members.

I don't know, man, I'm just not seeing any "venom" in that comment.

[TAC]

I've always found James very diplomatic in his interviews. There are only a few examples where you can interpret his words as only slightly "venomous".

Yes I agree. But it is there though.

I don't know, man, I'm just not seeing any "venom" in that comment.

That's OK.

[King Postwhore]

Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it.  James said it in an interview for that reason.  It was a shot.

You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.

I think there was venom.  That's why he said it in public in an interview.  I agree with you Tim.

[KevShmev]

If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind, considering all of the shots Portnoy took at him over the years.  Being annoyed at his shot almost sounds defending a bully (Portnoy), when the person who was bullied (LaBrie) finally manned up and hit back.  Yes, how dare LaBrie not sit back and just take it anymore!!

[BlobVanDam]

Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it.  James said it in an interview for that reason.  It was a shot.

You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.

Agreed entirely.

[Calvin6s]

If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind

I only show 60

[ToT-147]

How exactly do you know what I enjoy or not?  How do you know the music doesn't (now or then) come first?   Because it does.  it always does.  But I like a LOT of music.  I like rock, prog, country, metal, grunge, classical... too much to listen to it all.  Literally.   I even like One Direction, Demi Lovato and Katy Perry.  There is too much to dig into for everything I like.   So there are sometimes little things that separate.   When Mike showed up at Ed Trunk's radio show with his cassette bootlegs of obscure shows he has (I remember at least one pre-2112 Rush boot) that was ME.  Metaphorically. 

It's not the disagreement.  I live for the disagreement (read the P/R threads).  It's never the disagreement.  I just got my scruff up when it looked like it DID come down to the personal.   I admire those that continue on as a No. 1 Fan after the change, because sometimes I wish I could do that.   This isn't the first time that a member has changed in a band I love and the band seemed to lose something.  For me, that IS the music; if they put out Images and Words tomorrow (no jokes please!) I'd be in 100%, but I don't think they did that.   I feel like I can tell the lack of MP presense on the new material, but since MM is a very high quality drummer (I don't go in for "better" or "worse", only "do I like it more or less") it's still very pleasing to the ears, and they still have LaBrie, who I think is the heart and soul of the DT sound. 

Ok, now we're clear.. I wasn't simplifying your opinion, is just that your early comments were a bit too simplistic and, as I know now, they didn't show your entire perspective about these issues.. They're almost all very complex to discuss in a forum.. (But trust me, it wasn't personal.. In fact, it couldn't be, since I don't know you and you don't know me )

So while you (wrongly) see this as "black and white, negative and positive", I'm seeing this as nuance on a continuum.  And if you want to respect my opinion, you have to judge it in that light, not yours. 

NO, not at all!.. I could even agree with you if you want, but no way I see things black or white.. Nothing further from what I always think of everything: there are always gray gradations for ALL kind of stuff..