5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[King Postwhore]

Mike did that to himself though guys.  He could himself loosened the load.  Why play with A7X if you are getting burned?  He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects. 

He did this to himself.

[Stadler]

Yeah, I know that.. I was just saying "five" years because that's longer than one or two, in which you might not have any change at all.. With five (and, as some have said before, this is all speculation) is likely that they would had a change, but then the problems and "stress" would've been back.. Because you don't change your personality in five-or even more-years.. You calm down the things a little, but if there's a major problem, you can't stop this from happening again and again.. And there was a major problem..

I disagree with you on that strenuously.  Sometimes you need to see what the world CAN be like to know that the way the world IS is the right way to be.   Look at Maiden, Priest, Kiss (in a sense), Sabbath, Yes, Aerosmith... all did one form or another of what Mike was talking about and all came back stronger and more of a cohesive unit than before.

Mike is, as much as anything, a student of music.  And more than anyone in the band, except perhaps Jordan, he is plugged into other bands and sees how they work.   I think you (collective, not you personally) are ascribing too much personal point of view to this and not giving fair shake to the way Mike might have seen it.  I'm speculating, of course, but this is a guy that gives Beatle trivia from the stage during a concert.   I think he's quite well aware that many of his most cherished bands have done what he asked and came back better than ever.

I think that, because he was the one "stressing" the band.. The thing on stage we'll never know if actually bothered or not the guys, but what did bother them, and this has also been said in interviews, was the rotating setlists.. Specially to JR, who had to reprogramme his keyboard everytime only because MP wanted to play songs in places they didn't have yet.. But also the others, who had to learn songs everytime and remember well the order, etc (and we're not precisely talking of easy songs, even when we know their abilities..)

But much has been said in this thread about this.. I'll only mention one more example, that even you have pointed out: MP thought there was a problem, because he realised they weren't friends, and that's why he thought there should've been a break.. But, as you said it, they don't have to be friends to be in a band, and to create songs.. In fact, they did BC&SL with that deteriorated relationship, and for me is one of their best albums.. So I agree about that, but then you should recognize that MP was wrong in that..

That's, anyway, only one of the reasons I think the problem was Portnoy.. Obviously, I know that sounds very simplistic on my part, but I think the arrival of MM and the good vibe of the band since then gives it even more sense..

I don't think he ever said ANYWHERE that the break was "because they weren't friends", and I don't recall seeing anywhere a "hatred" (my word) of the rotating setlists.  Acknowledgement that it was hard, yes, and a tacit acceptance that it wasn't going to happen while they were breaking in a new drummer, yes, but not any rejection.   He did note the "one member" (widely thought to be Myung) who was more content buried in his headphones than actually interacting, but that was put forth as a bad CHANGE, not a bad state of being.   And I don't agree at all that "the problem was Portnoy".  By your own logic, he has NONE of these issues with any of the other bands he is in, and he's a constant, so it MUST be the other guys.   But that is false. You can't look at 40 variables, change one, and assume that it is solely and utterly because of that one variable.   Honestly, and I don't mean this as a dig, but I think you have your conclusion and are fitting facts to the conclusion, not the other way around.   There are too many holes for any of us to reach some of the conclusions that are being reached. 

[Stadler]

Those last 2 Floyd albums we better than The Final Cut.  Let's be honest, you are absolutely right that it takes two, but if I had another band member talking about replacing me as the singer, I've have problems with him.  That should be private Stadler.  I just think mike handled everything the wrong way.  He leaves everything on his sleeve and sometime you need to handle things in house.  I also think how the other 3 bandmates reacted by moving on quickly says that they we all frustrated by Mike.

I don't know the inner workings of them privately but how quick they moved on says a lot.

Whether it should be private or not is subjective (as is whether MLOR is better than TFC, which it absolutely is not. HAHA.), though my style would be to have that conversation one on one or in a band meeting behind closed doors.  But, like the allegory of the scorpion and the turtle, we (including the band) know who Mike is, and how he operates.  He is candid, and pulls no punches.  Likely how he got to the pinnacle of his chosen craft, to be honest, and there are (almost though not quite literally) hundreds of musicians with whom he's worked that don't seem to have a problem with it.

As for the moving on, well, I don't think you can read much into that. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and it is just as likely that it was "I'm fucking pissed, fuck him and the drum stool he rode in on, leaving us this way!" and doing it as much out of spite as anything else.   I get the very strong sense that as much as his demeanor is quiet and gentle, JP is NOT a man to be fucked with, and has  a very high sense of discipline and drive.  Add to that the familial situations (where several of the spouses were in a band together and understand how this business works as well as their husbands do) and I don't think the months following the break have anywhere near as much to do with the previous 20 years of MP as they do with the immediate circumstances they found themselves in.

[Stadler]

Agreed.  Sorry, Stadler, but the five years thing is relevant to the discussion, so it should not be given a rest.  Portnoy trying to downplay it in interviews since merely comes off as him trying to save face because the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).

Don't be sorry; we're (at least I am) having a friendly dialogue about an issue that means a lot to us, relatively speaking.

I think it is relevant to mention, but to give it so much emphasis, to make it be the "deal breaker", and to imply that JP, JR, and JLB would have accepted Mike's proposal if only it was just three years instead of five is just not accurate. 

As for the relief, I don't know.  Certainly JLB was, he said as much, if not literally then quite clearly by implication.  But JR saying "he cried" when it all went down doesn't exactly ring endorsements for the "The King is Dead! Long live the King!" point of view here. 

[Stadler]

Mike did that to himself though guys.  He could himself loosened the load.  Why play with A7X if you are getting burned?  He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects. 

He did this to himself.

Haha, that's kind of funny.  This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans.   If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts.   Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue.   Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material. 

[emtee]

Stads he did mention in an interview that on the last tour with DT nobody spent time together. They didn't eat together, or hang
together and the realization hit him that he was having a far better time hanging out with all his other friends and musicians. He was
basically saying it just wasn't fun any more. Bottom line. It's like I said before, you can only pretend for so long even if you think it's
in the best interest of your fans. At some point you wake up and realize it's over. We all reach these 'life-is-short' moments at
some point in our lives and usually they bring major change.

[King Postwhore]

Mike did that to himself though guys.  He could himself loosened the load.  Why play with A7X if you are getting burned?  He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects. 

He did this to himself.

Haha, that's kind of funny.  This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans.   If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts.   Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue.   Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.

And I absolutely miss those no doubt.  But I look at Mike like a person with ADD, he just can't stop.  He has to be busy with everything and anything which lead to him being burnt on his first true love, DT.  I hated seeing him leave but just from what I've read, it's obvious the other guys were slowly burning out on him too.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Stads he did mention in an interview that on the last tour with DT nobody spent time together. They didn't eat together, or hang
together and the realization hit him that he was having a far better time hanging out with all his other friends and musicians. He was
basically saying it just wasn't fun any more. Bottom line. It's like I said before, you can only pretend for so long even if you think it's
in the best interest of your fans. At some point you wake up and realize it's over. We all reach these 'life-is-short' moments at
some point in our lives and usually they bring major change.

That's from where the 'younger wife' analogy came to be. He was hanging with Avenged Sevenfold, a group of young guys that love to party and he felt like he was right at home. Then, he left DT, and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.

What does that tell us? We don't know what was going through MP's life back then, but I think him leaving DT was necessary for both the remaining members and him.

[Stadler]

...and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.

How do we know this?  I haven't seen one piece of information that corroborates that.   Not arguing with you, but sincerely saying "I've not heard anything like that".  Do we KNOW they're eating dinner together?  Do we KNOW Myung isn't buried in his headphones?  Maybe they just tolerate the spaces more. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

...and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.

How do we know this?  I haven't seen one piece of information that corroborates that.   Not arguing with you, but sincerely saying "I've not heard anything like that".  Do we KNOW they're eating dinner together?  Do we KNOW Myung isn't buried in his headphones?  Maybe they just tolerate the spaces more.

At least 10 or 15 interviews I've seen or read, so that's pretty commonplace information in DT land I'd say. They say they're very happy, and it shows.

[Setlist Scotty]

Mike did that to himself though guys.  He could himself loosened the load.  Why play with A7X if you are getting burned?  He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects. 

He did this to himself.

Haha, that's kind of funny.  This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans.   If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts.   Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue.   Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.

And I absolutely miss those no doubt.  But I look at Mike like a person with ADD, he just can't stop.  He has to be busy with everything and anything which lead to him being burnt on his first true love, DT.  I hated seeing him leave but just from what I've read, it's obvious the other guys were slowly burning out on him too.

That's the thing - had he loosened the load, it's obvious no one was gonna take up the slack, which is why he continued to do it for as long as he did.

As for the other guys burning out on him, I don't necessarily think that's true. As was pointed out, JR admitted to crying after it all came crashing down. And since none of the other guys got anywhere near as involved in all the behind the scenes stuff as MP did, I doubt they were burned out on him. Perhaps for having to learn more than 1 show's worth of material, but I doubt there was much more.

That's from where the 'younger wife' analogy came to be. He was hanging with Avenged Sevenfold, a group of young guys that love to party and he felt like he was right at home. Then, he left DT, and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.

What does that tell us? We don't know what was going through MP's life back then, but I think him leaving DT was necessary for both the remaining members and him.

Correction - it really started when he was doing the HAIL! shows and Transatlantic, and continued when he toured with A7X. As Stads mentioned, it was largely because he was having fun and enjoying being with the other guys. I doubt his personal life had anything to do with it - thanks to his awesome and very supportive wife, he's had a pretty grounded family life, even if he's almost constantly globe-trotting. That said, did he need a break from the other guys? It does seem to be so. But did it mean that he needed to quit the band? No.

...and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.

How do we know this?  I haven't seen one piece of information that corroborates that.   Not arguing with you, but sincerely saying "I've not heard anything like that".  Do we KNOW they're eating dinner together?  Do we KNOW Myung isn't buried in his headphones?  Maybe they just tolerate the spaces more.

At least 10 or 15 interviews I've seen or read, so that's pretty commonplace information in DT land I'd say. They say they're very happy, and it shows.

I know I've seen some similar statements, and to a degree, I agree with it. When MP left, they felt it absolutely to prove that they could go on without him and it forced them to bond and strengthen the relationships between them, because if they didn't, chances are the band wouldn't have continued.

[ToT-147]

I don't think he ever said ANYWHERE that the break was "because they weren't friends", and I don't recall seeing anywhere a "hatred" (my word) of the rotating setlists.

I'm quoting them, so that you and we can all read what they (MP and JR in this case) have said about these things:

MP: "There were two moments of clarity for me that happened before this went down that I knew maybe it was time for a break. One was I was out one night in New York with you guys [referring to 'That Metal Show' hosts Eddie Trunk, Jim Florentine and Don Jamieson. Ed.]. I was out when FOZZY played. We were out, we went and saw [FOZZY singer Chris] Jericho, our good friend, and the AVENGED guys were there with us that night, and the ANTHRAX guys were there, and Vinnie Paul [PANTERA, HELLYEAH drummer] was there, we went out for dinner with Jericho and Bumblefoot [GUNS N' ROSES guitarist], the ZO2 guys I remember going for dinner with all these guys, you guys and Jericho and the ANTHRAX guys. I looked around and I said [to myself], 'None of the DREAM THEATER guys really know any of these people who are, like, my best friends.' " (Obviously implying DT guys were not his best friends, but only the rest of the guys he mentioned..)
https://goo.gl/RfOaVn

Interviewer: You guys are known for mixing it up. You don't do the same set list every night?

JR: "Well, we have been playing more of a similar kind of set list these days than we used to do. When our last drummer (Mike Portnoy, who left Dream Theater in 2010) was in the band, he was really into changing it up a lot. And one of the things that happened when he left was that we decided that we don't want to continue along that particular path, because we felt like it was really important to us to have a show that was really dialed in and that we were really proud of and that we knew what was going to happen from moment to moment. So we went with the idea of, let's just pick a set and maybe make some small alterations to it occasionally but in general keep it the same so our lighting and video people, our crew, we all know what's going to happen and it can be more like a Broadway show where you feel like you're watching something that's really well-constructed and the cues all happen precisely. In the old days it was more like, "OK, let's see, do I remember, tonight am I fading out of this one and starting this one and is the light going to be on or off and what is going to happen?´"
https://goo.gl/PfPrUr

"So after everyone was done listing the songs they wanted to play then we went through a process of purring it together in a good, cohesive setlist. Of course that was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that. It's not impossible to do, but it's also kind of a pain. But anyway, we had a good time doing it and it's one of the reasons we're so happy, we're playing the songs we really want to play."
https://www.dprp.net/wp/interviews/?page_id=582

[date: 11/29/2010] "And I've really got no problem with him doing what he's doing with Avenged Sevenfold. I think it's pretty cool going out and playing with a really successful rock group. I just have a little bit of a problem with him thinking that he could control Dream Theater. It's like a captain who is trying to command his ship when he's not even standing on the ship. And all the other guys are just sitting there , cruising along with a guy saying, 'The captain has left the ship. Okay, boys, here's what we're going to do: You're going to take a break.' And they're, like, 'But wait a minute, we're standing on the ship.' "
https://goo.gl/dRkY0g

The one that I couldn't find was the interview in which I read JR complaining about the rotating setlist, and how he had to handle with it every show and spending a lot of time just programming his keyboards.. So there is evidence (their opinions) for what we're saying here.. Is not just our personals "conclusions"..

And I don't agree at all that "the problem was Portnoy".  By your own logic, he has NONE of these issues with any of the other bands he is in, and he's a constant, so it MUST be the other guys.   But that is false. You can't look at 40 variables, change one, and assume that it is solely and utterly because of that one variable.

If you're talking to me, then you're wrong again.. I don't think that, never said that.. I never even said: "Portnoy had to go".. I'd liked him to stay, but, and here's where the thing become complex (to me at least), now that he's not in the band, they seem to be happier, and doing what they really want to do.. And I'm not the one saying this: they have said it (not only JR, but also JLB, and I'm pretty sure the Johns feel the same about it)..

And there's that video in which JP reads to MM the Urban Dictionary's new word "manginied", that I couldn't find either, but there they're eating dinner together.. Anyway, we don't know if they do that often, or just to film it, but we DO know how Portnoy felt about that when he was in the band.. I quoted him; that was his point of view, not mine or anyone else's..

PS: sorry for the long post but I think it's worth it..

[King Postwhore]

Scotty, if only Mike pulled back on taking on so much.  Us fans should have dealt with that. His mental well being is more important to me as a fan then a bonus disk or bootlegs. Those are perks that, we as fans, should never expect but cherish.

[cramx3]

But what could Mike pull back from that we could deal with not having?

If he could have relaxed with Ytse Jam releases, rotating setlists, and doing fan oriented things, then I think we all as humans while missing those elements would have agreed to drop them if it meant Mike's well being personally and within DT.  However, like Scotty said, I think it is MP's nature to want to take on those responsibilities anyway (hence why he did them in the first place and not anyone else) so I am not even sure if there was a way to make that compromise.

[King Postwhore]

Come on man.  Read my earlier posts video said what you said.  But I wish as a fan he pulled back a bit for DT's sake.


Now that he's also over the place, I'm all for his many bands and compulsive behavior.   Lol

[Setlist Scotty]

Scotty, if only Mike pulled back on taking on so much.  Us fans should have dealt with that. His mental well being is more important to me as a fan then a bonus disk or bootlegs. Those are perks that, we as fans, should never expect but cherish.

Let's be honest - the bootlegs are a piece of cake. The man has an amazing memory and could probably produce a list of 100 shows and other bootlegs that he would put out with Ytsejam Records. That's not a problem. The setlists are something that I believe he really found joy in piecing together, even if he sometimes stayed up late into the night trying to figure out what setlist should be for what city.

I think it's a lot of the other things that the other guys could've gotten involved in that would be more hum-drum - the light show, the video show, the interviews, the OK'ing of artwork for T-shirts and other memorabilia, probably a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff that the band needs to be a part of in arranging for the writing/recording of an album and doing a supporting tour.

Then again, who knows how much power MP would've been willing to relinquish to others, for fear that they wouldn't do as good a job, assuming the other guys were willing to take on some additional tasks. Certainly I don't think any of the other guys are as concerned about the minute details like MP would, which would explain why the ADToE tour T-shirt I have has "Morristown, N" instead of "Morristown, NJ" - something that MP would've caught and corrected before it ever made it to print (and I say this having put together 3 tourbooks with him as well as the original tourography).

[KevShmev]

Haha, that's kind of funny.  This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans.   If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts.   Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue.  Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.

Pfft, that's only because a small minority of you won't let it go and bring it up at every opportunity.  DT could do 99 of the 100 things Portnoy used to do, and a few of you would still say, "Yeah, but where are the ytsejam releases?"

Best to just enjoy the band for what they are now, instead of lamenting that they are no longer what they used to be.  It's make it a lot more fun to be a fan.

[Stadler]

Haha, that's kind of funny.  This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans.   If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts.   Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue.  Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.

Pfft, that's only because a small minority of you won't let it go and bring it up at every opportunity.  DT could do 99 of the 100 things Portnoy used to do, and a few of you would still say, "Yeah, but where are the ytsejam releases?"

Best to just enjoy the band for what they are now, instead of lamenting that they are no longer what they used to be.  It's make it a lot more fun to be a fan.

For you, and if that works for you, fantastic.  I (seriously) couldn't be happier for you. 

But I've said here and at Mike's site many many times:  there was a time, from about 1994 through about 2010, where DT was special.  One of maybe two or three bands that were a cut above.  I have every single.  Every fan club release.  Every Ytsejam title.   Would go to multiple shows.  And felt like part of the gang, like part of something special.  It was (almost) icing on the cake that there wasn't a song in the catalogue - with one exception - that I wouldn't at least like if not love.  Now, well, they are certainly good, I've bought both albums since (and Luna Park, but not the new live one) but they are one of many bands I listen to and follow now.  Still very good (I'm not 100% sure I'm a first day buyer of this new one; we'll see) but not [Charlton Heston voice] SPECIAL [back to normal voice].

It is what it is.  I've been in bands; I can play almost anything with unlimited time to learn it and the luxury of playing it every night for 100 nights.   I could never in a million frickin' years do what Mike (and the rest of the band did) and that is pull any song out of the discography at any given time.  And I think back to what for me are the most memorable moments of the 400-some-odd concerts I've been lucky enough to see in my life, and NOT ONE OF THEM (with one exception) is because the "lighting cue was just spot fucking on from the band".    The exception being "Woman From Tokyo" on the Purpendicular Tour; the band played the bridge, it was beautiful, and there was just a heartbeat of silence, and Roger, Steve, and Ian hit the riff as perfectly as three humans ever could and it went from dead silence to jet engine in a flash of a second. 

Look; this isn't a contest.  You guys are into it, then enjoy it for all it's worth.  You should; music is for pleasure above all else.   I'm sorry, I've got other music and bands and approaches that I like better at this point, and a large part of that change is the removal of MP from the equation.

[Stadler]

I don't think he ever said ANYWHERE that the break was "because they weren't friends", and I don't recall seeing anywhere a "hatred" (my word) of the rotating setlists.

I'm quoting them, so that you and we can all read what they (MP and JR in this case) have said about these things:

MP: "There were two moments of clarity for me that happened before this went down that I knew maybe it was time for a break. One was I was out one night in New York with you guys [referring to 'That Metal Show' hosts Eddie Trunk, Jim Florentine and Don Jamieson. Ed.]. I was out when FOZZY played. We were out, we went and saw [FOZZY singer Chris] Jericho, our good friend, and the AVENGED guys were there with us that night, and the ANTHRAX guys were there, and Vinnie Paul [PANTERA, HELLYEAH drummer] was there, we went out for dinner with Jericho and Bumblefoot [GUNS N' ROSES guitarist], the ZO2 guys I remember going for dinner with all these guys, you guys and Jericho and the ANTHRAX guys. I looked around and I said [to myself], 'None of the DREAM THEATER guys really know any of these people who are, like, my best friends.' " (Obviously implying DT guys were not his best friends, but only the rest of the guys he mentioned..)
https://goo.gl/RfOaVn

Interviewer: You guys are known for mixing it up. You don't do the same set list every night?

JR: "Well, we have been playing more of a similar kind of set list these days than we used to do. When our last drummer (Mike Portnoy, who left Dream Theater in 2010) was in the band, he was really into changing it up a lot. And one of the things that happened when he left was that we decided that we don't want to continue along that particular path, because we felt like it was really important to us to have a show that was really dialed in and that we were really proud of and that we knew what was going to happen from moment to moment. So we went with the idea of, let's just pick a set and maybe make some small alterations to it occasionally but in general keep it the same so our lighting and video people, our crew, we all know what's going to happen and it can be more like a Broadway show where you feel like you're watching something that's really well-constructed and the cues all happen precisely. In the old days it was more like, "OK, let's see, do I remember, tonight am I fading out of this one and starting this one and is the light going to be on or off and what is going to happen?´"
https://goo.gl/PfPrUr

"So after everyone was done listing the songs they wanted to play then we went through a process of purring it together in a good, cohesive setlist. Of course that was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that. It's not impossible to do, but it's also kind of a pain. But anyway, we had a good time doing it and it's one of the reasons we're so happy, we're playing the songs we really want to play."
https://www.dprp.net/wp/interviews/?page_id=582

[date: 11/29/2010] "And I've really got no problem with him doing what he's doing with Avenged Sevenfold. I think it's pretty cool going out and playing with a really successful rock group. I just have a little bit of a problem with him thinking that he could control Dream Theater. It's like a captain who is trying to command his ship when he's not even standing on the ship. And all the other guys are just sitting there , cruising along with a guy saying, 'The captain has left the ship. Okay, boys, here's what we're going to do: You're going to take a break.' And they're, like, 'But wait a minute, we're standing on the ship.' "
https://goo.gl/dRkY0g

The one that I couldn't find was the interview in which I read JR complaining about the rotating setlist, and how he had to handle with it every show and spending a lot of time just programming his keyboards.. So there is evidence (their opinions) for what we're saying here.. Is not just our personals "conclusions"..

And I don't agree at all that "the problem was Portnoy".  By your own logic, he has NONE of these issues with any of the other bands he is in, and he's a constant, so it MUST be the other guys.   But that is false. You can't look at 40 variables, change one, and assume that it is solely and utterly because of that one variable.

If you're talking to me, then you're wrong again.. I don't think that, never said that.. I never even said: "Portnoy had to go".. I'd liked him to stay, but, and here's where the thing become complex (to me at least), now that he's not in the band, they seem to be happier, and doing what they really want to do.. And I'm not the one saying this: they have said it (not only JR, but also JLB, and I'm pretty sure the Johns feel the same about it)..

And there's that video in which JP reads to MM the Urban Dictionary's new word "manginied", that I couldn't find either, but there they're eating dinner together.. Anyway, we don't know if they do that often, or just to film it, but we DO know how Portnoy felt about that when he was in the band.. I quoted him; that was his point of view, not mine or anyone else's..

PS: sorry for the long post but I think it's worth it..

Good research, but I stand unconvinced.  You're picking the parts that might or might not work for your argument (the Portnoy quote), and what do work for your argument (the bolded stuff), but conveniently ignoring those that don't (JR: "Of course [a rotating setlist] was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that.")

Look, as I said to KevSchmev, it's not a contest;  if you like it better, more power to you.  The things I held dear, and the things that were important to me, are not there anymore.  It's still good, occasionally great ("This Is The Life", "The Looking Glass") but it lost something for me.  I'm still (for the most part) buying the records, but I don't hang on every drum beat anymore (at least not on the DT records) and that's just the way it is.

[hefdaddy42]

Sometimes you need to see what the world CAN be like to know that the way the world IS is the right way to be.   Look at Maiden, Priest, Kiss (in a sense), Sabbath, Yes, Aerosmith... all did one form or another of what Mike was talking about and all came back stronger and more of a cohesive unit than before.

Mike is, as much as anything, a student of music.  And more than anyone in the band, except perhaps Jordan, he is plugged into other bands and sees how they work.   I think you (collective, not you personally) are ascribing too much personal point of view to this and not giving fair shake to the way Mike might have seen it.  I'm speculating, of course, but this is a guy that gives Beatle trivia from the stage during a concert.   I think he's quite well aware that many of his most cherished bands have done what he asked and came back better than ever.

The big difference is the "level" fo bands.  Groups that are huge in their field, or larger than life (like all of those you mentioned), sure, they can take breaks, hiatuses, or even break up, and then come back years later and be fine.

DT is nowhere near that level of fame, notoriety, or perpetual income.  I think an expectation that they would just take 5 years off and be OK just because KISS could do it is unreasonable.

[Setlist Scotty]

The big difference is the "level" fo bands.  Groups that are huge in their field, or larger than life (like all of those you mentioned), sure, they can take breaks, hiatuses, or even break up, and then come back years later and be fine.

DT is nowhere near that level of fame, notoriety, or perpetual income.  I think an expectation that they would just take 5 years off and be OK just because KISS could do it is unreasonable.

Agreed - 5 years would be too much to ask. But that was a starting point, and even when a 1 year hiatus was requested, that was shut down. Taking a year off would not have been a bad thing, and I doubt any of the guys would've felt that much of a financial pinch - the band has a collective pot of money that they each receive regular payments from (as opposed to huge payouts during tour-time, and nothing during the breaks inbetween). During that time, they could've all done their various solo projects and then came back more ready to go than before.

[Cool Chris]

[Taking a year off would not have been a bad thing... They could've all done their various solo projects and then came back more ready to go than before.

Except only one guy wanted to do that, the other four didn't.

[hefdaddy42]

[Taking a year off would not have been a bad thing... They could've all done their various solo projects and then came back more ready to go than before.

Except only one guy wanted to do that, the other four didn't.

That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.

[ToT-147]

Yeah, I agree with Cool Chris and Hef..

Good research, but I stand unconvinced.  You're picking the parts that might or might not work for your argument (the Portnoy quote), and what do work for your argument (the bolded stuff), but conveniently ignoring those that don't (JR: "Of course [a rotating setlist] was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that.")

Look, as I said to KevSchmev, it's not a contest;  if you like it better, more power to you.  The things I held dear, and the things that were important to me, are not there anymore.  It's still good, occasionally great ("This Is The Life", "The Looking Glass") but it lost something for me.  I'm still (for the most part) buying the records, but I don't hang on every drum beat anymore (at least not on the DT records) and that's just the way it is.

But the point of those quotes was not to give ME more reason about my personal taste (actually, as I said before, I also agree that they have lost that "something", -that someone- they used to have, and I don't like their two albums without MP as much as the previous ones).. The quotes I copied were only to give an idea of their thinking about the reasons why MP wanted the hiatus, and the reasons why the band was ok with him leaving, or pushing his departure, or with whatever has truly happened.

I don't ignore anything I quoted.. That's why I quoted.. I could have removed it, but instead I bolded the parts which I think are his main thoughts, his conclusion.. He clearly uses the "Of course... (...) But anyway..." grammatical structure, giving more importance to the latter words..

But yeah, this isn't a competition, is just a friendly discussion as you said earlier..
In fact we both agree in which was their best era, even though I always say it was, more precisely, between 1999 and 2009..

[jsbru]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be  'average at best' to the majority.

Not that it's a totally representative sample (but it's at least more representative than just a few forum posters' opinions), but ADTOE is the highest ranked DT album since 6DOIT on prog rock archives.

Now, individual people can surely disagree, but the consensus seems to be that this was their best album in a long time, and that's a sentiment I agree with.  DT12 has more middling ratings, though.

[BlobVanDam]

That's obviously a prog leaning site, so of course they'll favour that album over the others which are more metal. If you look at ratings across the internet in general, there's really not much separating the last four albums. ADTOE usually ranks a hair better on average, and DT12 generally worst, but there's not much in it.

[Setlist Scotty]

That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.

Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam

Am I missing something?

[pcs90]

Well of all of those I am pretty sure the only ones besides MP that are really busy are JR and maybe JLB.

[ToT-147]

That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.

Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam

Am I missing something?

But the big difference is the quantity.. These are the albums in which each member participated from 2000 to 2010, to have a reference (of course I might not have the exact numbers, but is pretty much like this):

JP: 3
JLB: 3
JR: 9
JM: 5
MP: 20

And the amount of projects:

JP: 3
JLB: 1
JR: 4
JM: 2
MP: 13

Sooo...

[Cool Chris]

Am I missing something?

Other than realizing the other 4 guys didn't want to take a break, not much I would say

[hefdaddy42]

That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.

Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam

Am I missing something?

JLB and JR definitely keep busy with side projects.

JP does a clinic once in a blue moon, but only the one solo album.  So no output making money outside DT.
JM does even less.  Yeah, he crawls out to record a project like Platypus or Jelly Jam once a decade or so, but otherwise, no money outside DT.

So you're missing their income, which generally depends on the DT machine.

[Madman Shepherd]

That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.

Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam

Am I missing something?

JLB and JR definitely keep busy with side projects.

I don't know if JLB recording a solo album once every 3-5 years can be considered "busy"

[BlobVanDam]

Let's also keep in mind this is all on top of DT's already packed schedule of recording an album and touring every couple of years, plus spending time with their families in the moments in between. That's a full time job already. I don't know where they even find time to sneeze, let alone squeeze in side projects.

It was/is probably somewhat easier for MP to do more side projects as a drummer, because you can arguably lay down the drum tracks quicker than you can write/record an album of music and record multiple rhythm and solo tracks etc, which I think would account for some of the difference in quantity (plus obviously the desire to do so, which is consistent with his personality).

The point is with even a short break of a few months, they actually could have done more on these side projects (or just had more family time or whatever). We've been waiting a decade now for a follow up to Suspended Animation! Come on JP, the last one kicked ass!

The rest of the band collectively didn't need or want a break though, and the rest is history; there's nothing to gain by dwelling on hypotheticals now. We're about to get the 3rd new DT album since the split, and MP has had time for countless albums and projects. I'd rather dwell on that.

[SwedishGoose]

The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...

They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.

I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.

Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.

[BlobVanDam]

The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...

They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.

I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.

Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.

Putting energy into the music, and communicating with fans are not mutually exclusive goals in any way.MP has said they were planning to do another concept album before he left, so we probably would have gotten a concept album by now either way.
On top of that, we still haven't heard a single thing from the new album yet.