Are there any major fan favorites that you think are good, but not great?

[bosk1]

Where exactly has Viper King "garnered a ton of praise?"    I've never seen that.

Literally the top two comments on the last page on the D/T thread are about how good Viper King is. It’s probably more noticeable to people who passionately dislike the song but nearly EVERYONE was goo goo over that song. Even in this thread 3-4 people have come to its defense. If that’s not a fan favorite I don’t know what is.

2 comments in one thread and 3-4 comments in another does not come anywhere close to making it a "major fan favorite."  I don't really understand where you are coming from.  Sorry, I just don't.  As Kev said, newer songs often get a more positive reaction than they may otherwise "deserve" (for lack of a better terms).  But Viper King has not by any stretch garnered the type of widespread praise that would place it in "major fan favorite" territory.

No but near universal praise in the D/T thread is indicative of pattern which shows it has a certain level of popularity amongst the fans. But that’s neither here nor there, 80% of the of the songs chosen here aren’t “major fan favorites” but Viper King gets singled out BECAUSE it has many fans, including yourself. 

What?  Again, you are completely off base.  Nobody singled out Viper King except you.  What is being singled out is your series of posts, because they are so offbase in insisting that 5 or 6 likes out of the entire fan base somehow makes it a "major fan favorite."  Sorry, but you are just wrong on that (as you are of your mistaken belief that I am somehow a huge fan of the song). 

[KevShmev]

Numerous people in the below thread expressed that they liked Raw Dog.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=15125.msg524001#msg524001

Therefore, it is a "major fan favorite," amirite?

[The Walrus]

How's about we stop quibbling and sniping at each other about what exactly a 'fan favorite' is and just continue the discussion 

... that said, do Voices and Scarred still count? Seems like most Awake lovers love those but I think they're the two worst tracks on the album. They're far from great imo

[Dublagent66]

Numerous people in the below thread expressed that they liked Raw Dog.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=15125.msg524001#msg524001

Therefore, it is a "major fan favorite," amirite?

LOL Kev.  You're such a smartass. 

How's about we stop quibbling and sniping at each other about what exactly a 'fan favorite' is and just continue the discussion 

... that said, do Voices and Scarred still count? Seems like most Awake lovers love those but I think they're the two worst tracks on the album. They're far from great imo

Well, let's see.  After 22 weeks in DT The League, here's what we have.

Scarred (22-0)
Voices (21-1)





Viper King (8-14)  Not exactly on it's way to being a fan favorite.   

[bosk1]

Those are definitely discussion-worthy choices.

Voices is not a favorite of mine.  But I have no problem with it being so highly revered.  In fact, I have a really hard time justifying in my own mind why it isn't one of my favorites as I run through what really works in the song and arrive at the conclusion that the answer is, "virtually everything." 

Scarred is one that I didn't care for at first.  But the more I heard it, the more it clicked.  It was at one time a top 10 DT song for me, and I think it is well worthy of that position.  Given the amount of great material they have written since, I'm not sure I could still rank it in my top 10.  But it surely isn't far off either.

[The Walrus]

Those are definitely discussion-worthy choices.

Voices is not a favorite of mine.  But I have no problem with it being so highly revered.  In fact, I have a really hard time justifying in my own mind why it isn't one of my favorites as I run through what really works in the song and arrive at the conclusion that the answer is, "virtually everything." 

Scarred is one that I didn't care for at first.  But the more I heard it, the more it clicked.  It was at one time a top 10 DT song for me, and I think it is well worthy of that position.  Given the amount of great material they have written since, I'm not sure I could still rank it in my top 10.  But it surely isn't far off either.

Interesting. For me, it's mostly James's performances that ruin both songs for me. On Awake he is magnificent, but at the same time tends to get a little obnoxious with his vocal lines and inflections, and those two are the chief offenders and destroy both songs for me.

[Dublagent66]

Scarred is my favorite on Awake.  Voices is a top 5.

[MirrorMask]

Voices is top 3 for me. And Scarred is equally magnificent. All of Awake is magnificent 

[Dublagent66]

Definitely, and the expectations were so high after I&W.  That's an incredible feat and they delivered. 

[DragonAttack]

Well, most of this thread is basically "Let me pick a song I don't like and then arbitrarily call it a fan favorite so I can bash on it."

Wanted to post days ago on this, and I totally agree.  So, let me bash away

But, first, I'll defend a few that have been bashed.  'Prophets of War' (great in concert, good lyrics for the times and clever spelling), 'Our New World' (with the 'Saviour in the Square intro as the intro....it's fabulous), and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with 8vM or disc two of Six Degrees. 

I am a firm believer, as an 'ol fart, that, other than 'Lost Not Forgotten', there is nothing wrong with ADToE (though I have 'Outcry' on my TA disc).  And....the new album...is five stars plus in my book.

Now, moving on....

'Awake'....I prefer my version of the 'Mirror' 45, followed by 'To Live Forever', and then delete SDV.  'Scarred' makes such a great album closer.  But, what a really great album!

'A Change of Seasons'....sacrilege, but it doesn't quite resonate with me.  Considering the I&W tour encore, that was a bummer.

And more sacrilege....'The Glass Prison'.  The first track I saw them play in concert, the first studio track I heard days later after purchasing the CD.  I 'like' most of it, but have edited it to remove the rap and the ending. 

'Home'....I prefer the single version, but, damn, seeing it live this past spring, JP blew me away with what he had to do on that track.

'Finally Free'.....the taped noises spoil it.

'Illumination Theory'....it is rather disjointed.  I know that many think it is better than sliced bread, but it doesn't grab me (such a pity).

I don't hate any of the above. 

It's just that (pardon my Queen fandom) I don't go 'ga ga' over those listed above.

[bosk1]

But, first, I'll defend a few that have been bashed.  'Prophets of War' (great in concert, good lyrics for the times and clever spelling), 'Our New World' (with the 'Saviour in the Square intro as the intro....it's fabulous), and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with 8vM or disc two of Six Degrees.

POW is one that I was referencing as clearly NOT a major fan favorite, so shouldn't even be in the discussion.  But for me personally, it is DT's absolute worst songs and one of very few that I don't like.  I guess I can give Our New World a pass on the "favorite" thing.  Close enough.  I agree with you on it being a good song.  And I will stand side by side with you on defending 8VM and SDOIT.  Those are both top 3 DT songs.

Along with...

'A Change of Seasons'....sacrilege, but it doesn't quite resonate with me.  Considering the I&W tour encore, that was a bummer.

  And here I thought we were friends...

I had picked up the studio EP a few times at a used shop where you could listen before buying, and the parts I sampled didn't do it for me at the time.  It wasn't until I heard the live version on LSFNY that my mind was blown and it became a favorite.  And I think that version is superior in every way to the studio version.  That said, after becoming familiar with the studio version afterward, I have to defend the song in all its forms.  Top 3 for sure.

And more sacrilege....'The Glass Prison'.  The first track I saw them play in concert, the first studio track I heard days later after purchasing the CD.  I 'like' most of it, but have edited it to remove the rap and the ending. 

Sorry, can't say I am with you on this one either.  Great song.  And you edited out the ending?      That's one of the best parts!  (and I have no idea what "rap" you are referring to)

'Home'....I prefer the single version, but, damn, seeing it live this past spring, JP blew me away with what he had to do on that track.

I cannot say I am overly familiar with the single version because it just feels too truncated, so I've never given it much attention.  That said, while I LOVE the full version, I feel it does meander quite a bit.  And the porn samples are a huge turnoff for what would otherwise be a top 10 song for me.

'Finally Free'.....the taped noises spoil it.

I like this one just fine.  But it has never stood out to me as a standalone song, and I have always had a bit of a hard time seeing why people like it so much.  But to each their own.  There is certainly nothing "bad" about it.  In fact, for my tastes, this might be a great example of a song that a lot of people put into the "great" category that I feel is "just good."

'Illumination Theory'....it is rather disjointed.  I know that many think it is better than sliced bread, but it doesn't grab me (such a pity).

I completely get it.  I like the song a lot.  But its disjointed nature is what keeps me from truly loving it.  The middle part is really nice.  But it is too long and too much of a momentum killer for me.  It is one of the few nitpicky times I wish they would have edited themselves and arranged this one differently.  But the song also has some of their best stuff, and I really love a lot of what it brings to the table.

[The Walrus]

There's rap in TGP? News to me.

[pg1067]

Sorry, can't say I am with you on this one either.  Great song.  And you edited out the ending?      That's one of the best parts!  (and I have no idea what "rap" you are referring to)

There's rap in TGP? News to me.

I'm guessing it's the section starting at 8:04 ("Enter the door....").

[Lonk]

'Finally Free'.....the taped noises spoil it.

I like this one just fine.  But it has never stood out to me as a standalone song, and I have always had a bit of a hard time seeing why people like it so much.  But to each their own.  There is certainly nothing "bad" about it.  In fact, for my tastes, this might be a great example of a song that a lot of people put into the "great" category that I feel is "just good."

Finally Free is my favorite song from the album. I get what you are saying and definitively as a stand alone song is just good, but in the context of the album as a whole is a great closer, making it a great song. If the album would've ended in TSCO the album would have been "Meh" for me, but the addition of Finally Free added a twist to the story that gives the album so much more power as a whole (and the one thing I was missing from TA, a "plot twist).

[gzarruk]

'Illumination Theory'....it is rather disjointed.  I know that many think it is better than sliced bread, but it doesn't grab me (such a pity).

I used to feel the same way about IT (it being disjointed), but once you realise the structure mirrors the lyrics (thanks erwinrafael for the analysis), and how the first part presents all these questions, the middle part is the introspective/trying to find the answers section and the final part are the answers themselves; it gives a whole new perspective on the song. Also, it's the only true epic from the Mangini era so far, so it helps the case too

[Shalev Amir]

I agree with DragonAttack on TGP ending, we have this crazy instrumental section and then we get this one minute that just feels too long and not in place  I thought at first it ruins it for other people as well so I was so surprised when I found out people think it's the good part of the song 

[The Walrus]

Sorry, can't say I am with you on this one either.  Great song.  And you edited out the ending?      That's one of the best parts!  (and I have no idea what "rap" you are referring to)

There's rap in TGP? News to me.

I'm guessing it's the section starting at 8:04 ("Enter the door....").

Huh. That is most definitely not rap.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

... that said, do Voices and Scarred still count? Seems like most Awake lovers love those but I think they're the two worst tracks on the album. They're far from great imo

With all due respect, I struggle to understand how one could feel this way about those two songs and still call themselves a DT fan. 

[bosk1]

I actually just checked the DT Fan Handbook, and it actually states that one can actually dislike up to five songs without having their "True Fan" membership cards revoked.  So Katt is still in good standing.

[Dublagent66]

^

I agree with DragonAttack on TGP ending, we have this crazy instrumental section and then we get this one minute that just feels too long and not in place  I thought at first it ruins it for other people as well so I was so surprised when I found out people think it's the good part of the song 

Actually, I don't think there's any "one minute" in a DT song that is too long.  It's more like a blink of the eye.   As far as the ending goes, I wouldn't say it's "the" good part of the song but it is "a" good part.  One of many...

[geeeemo]

^

I agree with DragonAttack on TGP ending, we have this crazy instrumental section and then we get this one minute that just feels too long and not in place  I thought at first it ruins it for other people as well so I was so surprised when I found out people think it's the good part of the song 

Actually, I don't think there's any "one minute" in a DT song that is too long.  It's more like a blink of the eye.   As far as the ending goes, I wouldn't say it's "the" good part of the song but it is "a" good part.  One of many...

To me, DT is all about different, off the cuff, long, weird, wankery, but yet good music. I find it funny when one aspect or another of a song is picked on. If they didn't do all the different crazy stuff, they would just be a boring, basic band. I love when songs go in one direction and then take a hard right. Cool!  After d/t was released I saw many comments about how the songs are too short. But on the other hand, with long songs I see comments about how this part should be cut out, it's too long etc. Variety keeps DT, DT. 

[gzarruk]

^

I agree with DragonAttack on TGP ending, we have this crazy instrumental section and then we get this one minute that just feels too long and not in place  I thought at first it ruins it for other people as well so I was so surprised when I found out people think it's the good part of the song 

Actually, I don't think there's any "one minute" in a DT song that is too long.  It's more like a blink of the eye.   As far as the ending goes, I wouldn't say it's "the" good part of the song but it is "a" good part.  One of many...

To me, DT is all about different, off the cuff, long, weird, wankery, but yet good music. I find it funny when one aspect or another of a song is picked on. If they didn't do all the different crazy stuff, they would just be a boring, basic band. I love when songs go in one direction and then take a hard right. Cool!  After d/t was released I saw many comments about how the songs are too short. But on the other hand, with long songs I see comments about how this part should be cut out, it's too long etc. Variety keeps DT, DT.

Nailed it

[DragonAttack]

I actually just checked the DT Fan Handbook, and it actually states that one can actually dislike up to five songs without having their "True Fan" membership cards revoked.  So Katt is still in good standing.

I hope I am as well, Bosk.

I must have hit a nerve or three, due to your well written response.  Once again, in keeping with the thread, and not 'dissing' the tunes I listed.....to me, they are 'OK' (and then some).....they just aren't my 'favorites'.  I also wish they were.  'Most' of the moments in those tracks grab me, but there are the too many moments that keep me from going to the complete 'effin ey' level.

Call it the very ol' fart in me.  Queen fan and all, due to the guitars and LVs (otherwise I would have dropped them like a stone fifteen years ago)... I love I&W, 90% of 'Awake', SFoM, adore everything about 8vM (including the so called 'sappy' moments), most of SC, ADToE, 12, D/T,      and....about 85% of FII (love my edited version). 

(I am also soooo glad for 'Viper King'. Found a four inch model car at the Pacific Ocean, in metro Baltimore, and on Broadway in NYC.  A fab track to insert after 'Out of Reach'.  John Bonham would love the homage of 'Trampled Underfoot', as would Roger Taylor of Queen from 'I'm In Love With My Car').

[KevShmev]

Numerous people in the below thread expressed that they liked Raw Dog.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=15125.msg524001#msg524001

Therefore, it is a "major fan favorite," amirite?

LOL Kev.  You're such a smartass. 

[The Walrus]

... that said, do Voices and Scarred still count? Seems like most Awake lovers love those but I think they're the two worst tracks on the album. They're far from great imo

With all due respect, I struggle to understand how one could feel this way about those two songs and still call themselves a DT fan. 

There are over 150 songs in Dream Theater's primary (full length) catalog. I can't dislike 2? Literally the rest of the album is fantastic. I just don't get the hype over those two at all.

[SystematicThought]

With all due respect, I struggle to understand how one could feel this way about those two songs and still call themselves a DT fan. 

Seriously? I've never listened to Sacrificed Sons, but still consider DT to be one of my favorite bands. Am I not a fan?

The best version of Awake is the cassette version because Scarred isn't on it. It was cool to see live, but I don't stop to listen to it.

[gzarruk]

Almost 35 years into DT's career and some of us haven't realised yet that their catalog is vast and varied enough for fans to like some songs and dislike others (without blindingly bashing them). We don't need to agree on everything here, people

[Volante99]

With all due respect, I struggle to understand how one could feel this way about those two songs and still call themselves a DT fan. 

Seriously? I've never listened to Sacrificed Sons, but still consider DT to be one of my favorite bands. Am I not a fan?

The best version of Awake is the cassette version because Scarred isn't on it. It was cool to see live, but I don't stop to listen to it.

I think ya'll are taking that poster's message a bit out of context, maybe. On one hand I don't agree with the basic premise but I think what he's trying to say is that Scarred and Voices are so exemplary of what DT does best, it's odd to dislike those songs but be a big DT fan. It's like saying I LOVE Dream Theater, but hate soaring vocal melodies, guitar solos, fast keyboard/guitar unisons, songs with lots of transitions and odd time signatures. No doubt DT has had an extremely diverse discography over the years, but to some people there are certain songs which exemplify what the band is all about.

[SystematicThought]

I think ya'll are taking that poster's message a bit out of context, maybe. On one hand I don't agree with the basic premise but I think what he's trying to say is that Scarred and Voices are so exemplary of what DT does best, it's odd to dislike those songs but be a big DT fan. It's like saying I LOVE Dream Theater, but hate soaring vocal melodies, guitar solos, fast keyboard/guitar unisons, songs with lots of transitions and odd time signatures. No doubt DT has had an extremely diverse discography over the years, but to some people there are certain songs which exemplify what the band is all about.

What's odd about not liking certain songs and being a fan? I'd bet good money that there are a lot of people here who wouldn't put Pull Me Under in their Top 3, even Top 10 and that's DT's biggest song. A band like DT is so varied that all of us latch on to different aspects of their music. Voices and Scarred maybe do nothing for Katt, but does something for others. Saying something like "How can you not like Scarred and Voices and still call yourself a DT fan" is a rather odd take, at least to me. I guess I also learned today that Scarred and Voices are far more popular than I thought. Scarred, at least, shocked me.

In my opinion, there are far better examples of what DT is all about other than Scarred and Voices, but that's my opinion. Doesn't change the fact that I'm still a fan of DT. It's the beauty of DT, we all see something different in the group that makes us a fan of their work.

[The Walrus]

Yeah, I really don't think Scarred and Voices are exemplary of what DT does best. I would pick other songs, personally. I'm still a huge DT fan. Again... I literally love the rest of Awake. DT does DT better on songs like 6:00 and The Mirror... to me.

[Northern Lion]

But, first, I'll defend a few that have been bashed.  'Prophets of War' (great in concert, good lyrics for the times and clever spelling), 'Our New World' (with the 'Saviour in the Square intro as the intro....it's fabulous), and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with 8vM or disc two of Six Degrees. 

I've always thought Prophets of War was great too, so I second that!  Our New World is also really good and I don't ever skip it, and SDoIT the song is among my favorites that DT has written.  But...

Octavarium, I just can't get into it anymore.  Although James' scream towards the end still sometimes gives me goosbumps.  My personal favorite on 8VM is Sacrificed Sons, and that's where I generally end it when I listen to that album.

But, like I said, I do understand why this song is so revered.

[pg1067]

Yeah, I really don't think Scarred and Voices are exemplary of what DT does best. I would pick other songs, personally.

Yeah, but you also like Power Windows, so....   

[TAC]

Yeah, I really don't think Scarred and Voices are exemplary of what DT does best. I would pick other songs, personally. I'm still a huge DT fan. Again... I literally love the rest of Awake. DT does DT better on songs like 6:00 and The Mirror... to me.

How backwards could you be?

[The Walrus]

Yeah, I really don't think Scarred and Voices are exemplary of what DT does best. I would pick other songs, personally. I'm still a huge DT fan. Again... I literally love the rest of Awake. DT does DT better on songs like 6:00 and The Mirror... to me.

How backwards could you be?

You have NO room to talk! Don't you have some reruns of Cheers to watch? 

[bosk1]

Yeah, I really don't think Scarred and Voices are exemplary of what DT does best. I would pick other songs, personally. I'm still a huge DT fan. Again... I literally love the rest of Awake. DT does DT better on songs like 6:00 and The Mirror... to me.

How backwards could you be?