Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist

[TAC]

The thing is, there's nothing about this release that has me excited. I'm not getting it, so...in maybe two years I'll have a crack at the next one.

[NoFred]

Yeah I think the way to make this work was to release 6-10 things up front... we'd all get the ~2 we want right away, then over time will get the rest at whatever impulse/dosage we need.

[Stadler]

What's the deal with the preorders lately?   I get it from a pure economic standpoint - anytime you can get money IN the door before the cost/product goes OUT the door, it's good.   But that (originally) happened when there wasn't enough capital to cover the costs of the product (think Marillion's campaigns).  Then it got to be that for the bigger, more risky releases.   Now, it seems EVERYTHING is conducted under a pre-order, and while I used to be "NO DICE" on preorders, even the Marillion stuff, now it seems like you have to be.   

Are they planning/forecasting production runs and whatnot off of this?   It seems that there are several releases - the UFO Strangers set, the new Transatlantic - that seem to have limited/no product available after the initial preorder run.   Anyone know more about the logistics of this new formula?

[bosk1]

I just think it's weird that they don't have a live dvd of this album.

It's definitely weird that they didn't film a show when they were on that tour.

I think the reason (excuse) they gave at the time was that live DVD/Blu-ray albums weren't selling as well and they didn't want to do it because of that, but I think it had more to do with TA not being that well received by a significant portion of the fanbase. They also apparently changed their plans mid tour and instead of touring Asia/Australia, etc. for TA, they did the IAW anniversary tour instead, which scrapped all the chances they had to record one of those later shows.

Bosk has addressed this before, but my recollection was that there was a specific show(s) planned for recording, but that fell through and they weren't able to reschedule.

Yeah, it was a combination of factors.  There was the second leg of the tour being mangled by those who booked it wrong.  That in turn caused the interest to drop off, and the band to slightly modify the set.  Then the 25th Anniversary tour fell into place, and they were bumping up against that.  They were going to do a one-off date to film, but that date ended up not coming to fruition, so...you know the rest.  No filming. 

[HOF]

What's the deal with the preorders lately?   I get it from a pure economic standpoint - anytime you can get money IN the door before the cost/product goes OUT the door, it's good.   But that (originally) happened when there wasn't enough capital to cover the costs of the product (think Marillion's campaigns).  Then it got to be that for the bigger, more risky releases.   Now, it seems EVERYTHING is conducted under a pre-order, and while I used to be "NO DICE" on preorders, even the Marillion stuff, now it seems like you have to be.   

Are they planning/forecasting production runs and whatnot off of this?   It seems that there are several releases - the UFO Strangers set, the new Transatlantic - that seem to have limited/no product available after the initial preorder run.   Anyone know more about the logistics of this new formula?

Hasn't pretty much every release (across the industry) been available for pre-order for the past 15 years or so? I don't get the sense this is like the Marillion campaigns where you pay for some premium content before the album is even finished to fund the recording and marketing. I think they just want to be able to gauge demand based off pre-order volume before they print their first run.

[Skeever]

What's the deal with the preorders lately?   I get it from a pure economic standpoint - anytime you can get money IN the door before the cost/product goes OUT the door, it's good.   But that (originally) happened when there wasn't enough capital to cover the costs of the product (think Marillion's campaigns).  Then it got to be that for the bigger, more risky releases.   Now, it seems EVERYTHING is conducted under a pre-order, and while I used to be "NO DICE" on preorders, even the Marillion stuff, now it seems like you have to be.   

Are they planning/forecasting production runs and whatnot off of this?   It seems that there are several releases - the UFO Strangers set, the new Transatlantic - that seem to have limited/no product available after the initial preorder run.   Anyone know more about the logistics of this new formula?

Pretty much. I got bit by this a few times too. They just don't press the sheer number of CDs/DVDs/BluRays, they used to, I guess.

When Breaking the Fourth Wall came up, I decided not to get it right away because I was living in a small apartment and did not really have the means to enjoy it.  Years later, a few months ago, I used my stimulus to buy a home theater system. I thought I would commemorate it with a few concert blurays I had missed out on over the years. I checked amazon, and not only was there was no stock of Breaking the Fourth Wall, but the used market was also pretty ridiculous (like maybe $80 per disc, if I remember correctly). I just checked now and it's down to a slightly more reasonable $50. But still, I've learned my lesson. If you want physical media, better get right in line when it's released. There's no telling how copies are pressed these days, but I imagine it's a fraction of what it was even a decade ago. And if you wait you risk fighting with other collectors on the aftermarket and will pay a pretty penny if you want something badly enough.

[bosk1]

Skeever, check your PM

[Stadler]

What's the deal with the preorders lately?   I get it from a pure economic standpoint - anytime you can get money IN the door before the cost/product goes OUT the door, it's good.   But that (originally) happened when there wasn't enough capital to cover the costs of the product (think Marillion's campaigns).  Then it got to be that for the bigger, more risky releases.   Now, it seems EVERYTHING is conducted under a pre-order, and while I used to be "NO DICE" on preorders, even the Marillion stuff, now it seems like you have to be.   

Are they planning/forecasting production runs and whatnot off of this?   It seems that there are several releases - the UFO Strangers set, the new Transatlantic - that seem to have limited/no product available after the initial preorder run.   Anyone know more about the logistics of this new formula?

Pretty much. I got bit by this a few times too. They just don't press the sheer number of CDs/DVDs/BluRays, they used to, I guess.

When Breaking the Fourth Wall came up, I decided not to get it right away because I was living in a small apartment and did not really have the means to enjoy it.  Years later, a few months ago, I used my stimulus to buy a home theater system. I thought I would commemorate it with a few concert blurays I had missed out on over the years. I checked amazon, and not only was there was no stock of Breaking the Fourth Wall, but the used market was also pretty ridiculous (like maybe $80 per disc, if I remember correctly). I just checked now and it's down to a slightly more reasonable $50. But still, I've learned my lesson. If you want physical media, better get right in line when it's released. There's no telling how copies are pressed these days, but I imagine it's a fraction of what it was even a decade ago. And if you wait you risk fighting with other collectors on the aftermarket and will pay a pretty penny if you want something badly enough.

That's funny, because that is the same CD/DVD set on which I learned my lesson, too.   

[hefdaddy42]

What's the deal with the preorders lately?   I get it from a pure economic standpoint - anytime you can get money IN the door before the cost/product goes OUT the door, it's good.   But that (originally) happened when there wasn't enough capital to cover the costs of the product (think Marillion's campaigns).  Then it got to be that for the bigger, more risky releases.   Now, it seems EVERYTHING is conducted under a pre-order, and while I used to be "NO DICE" on preorders, even the Marillion stuff, now it seems like you have to be.   

Are they planning/forecasting production runs and whatnot off of this?   It seems that there are several releases - the UFO Strangers set, the new Transatlantic - that seem to have limited/no product available after the initial preorder run.   Anyone know more about the logistics of this new formula?

Hasn't pretty much every release (across the industry) been available for pre-order for the past 15 years or so? I don't get the sense this is like the Marillion campaigns where you pay for some premium content before the album is even finished to fund the recording and marketing. I think they just want to be able to gauge demand based off pre-order volume before they print their first run.

Yes.  And it's not just CD/music.  Books are this way too.  For example, I usually preorder new Stephen King books, so they just show up at my house a day or two before release day.

[geeeemo]

What's the deal with the preorders lately?   I get it from a pure economic standpoint - anytime you can get money IN the door before the cost/product goes OUT the door, it's good.   But that (originally) happened when there wasn't enough capital to cover the costs of the product (think Marillion's campaigns).  Then it got to be that for the bigger, more risky releases.   Now, it seems EVERYTHING is conducted under a pre-order, and while I used to be "NO DICE" on preorders, even the Marillion stuff, now it seems like you have to be.   

Are they planning/forecasting production runs and whatnot off of this?   It seems that there are several releases - the UFO Strangers set, the new Transatlantic - that seem to have limited/no product available after the initial preorder run.   Anyone know more about the logistics of this new formula?

Pretty much. I got bit by this a few times too. They just don't press the sheer number of CDs/DVDs/BluRays, they used to, I guess.

When Breaking the Fourth Wall came up, I decided not to get it right away because I was living in a small apartment and did not really have the means to enjoy it.  Years later, a few months ago, I used my stimulus to buy a home theater system. I thought I would commemorate it with a few concert blurays I had missed out on over the years. I checked amazon, and not only was there was no stock of Breaking the Fourth Wall, but the used market was also pretty ridiculous (like maybe $80 per disc, if I remember correctly). I just checked now and it's down to a slightly more reasonable $50. But still, I've learned my lesson. If you want physical media, better get right in line when it's released. There's no telling how copies are pressed these days, but I imagine it's a fraction of what it was even a decade ago. And if you wait you risk fighting with other collectors on the aftermarket and will pay a pretty penny if you want something badly enough.

That's funny, because that is the same CD/DVD set on which I learned my lesson, too.   

Yep, I am a newish fan, and an trying to get more and more. I was bummed about the BtFW.

[sylentman]

BT4W 3cds version and Train of Thought Vinyl have proven impossible for me .
Train of Thought Vinyl at least shows up on ebay sometimes (pretty expensive by the way), and as only started collecting the Vinyl recently i can understand and wait for a reissue or similar.
But, the CD version of BT4W I never even saw it on Amazon for pre-order back when it was released...so always had that missing piece which feel did not have the chance to get, and have been looking for with no luck.
Now with this discussion here, wonder why that one is never available, as see other older ones like Luna Park sold in many places...

[gzarruk]

LALP was released under Eagle Rock, not RR, so that might have something to do with it.

[zappafrank2112]

Has anyone considered the possibility that there hasn't been any serious push to cobble something together for a live rendition of The Astonishing b/c there's simply neither demand nor interest for it?

Argue all you want, but the people who champion the album are in reality the vocal minority.  DT couldn't even do a full tour on it before having to drop some of the album's songs and inserting more standard stuff.

In the end, for all intents and purpose, people just didn't like the album.  No amount of acting incredulous and being in disbelief at the lack of a live capture of it isn't going to change this fact.

[Max Kuehnau]

Ending derailment, this is PMU at Budokan in 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLeRLHzC1rc) My second favourite version to date, along with Luna Park.

[Enigmachine]

Has anyone considered the possibility that there hasn't been any serious push to cobble something together for a live rendition of The Astonishing b/c there's simply neither demand nor interest for it?

Argue all you want, but the people who champion the album are in reality the vocal minority.  DT couldn't even do a full tour on it before having to drop some of the album's songs and inserting more standard stuff.

In the end, for all intents and purpose, people just didn't like the album.  No amount of acting incredulous and being in disbelief at the lack of a live capture of it isn't going to change this fact.

As much as I like the album, this is a fair point. At some stage, the need for the band to not lose relevance probably outstrips their possible wishes to document an amitious, yet highly polarising album in this manner. It pretty much is to DT what Nostradamus was to Judas Priest (which I also liked). A passion project with a lot of time and energy put into it, but not exactly well recieved.

[Stadler]

Look, I'm not a huge fan of TA, and I'm not one of those clamoring for a live release, but fair is fair:  this is sort of exactly what the "archive" releases are/were for.   I don't think an entire album of Master Of Puppets or Number Of The Beast was what the bulk of the fanbase was clamouring for either, but they WERE on Ytsejam.   Small run, limited releases of those things that perhaps only a "fan" would really dig into.

[OpenYourEyes311]

So the pre-order links are up on Facebook. SUPER confusing, of course.

They're only selling one version on their website and it's a signed, clear vinyl version for $250. Super steep for vinyl, even signed. They gonna come to my house and sign it in front of me?

You otherwise have to order it from outside sources. I guess it's available on Amazon, but there's no link for it. The only link they gave goes to Revolver, which says it's coming out in September. Another link they gave (Rough Trade) doesn't even have the release available (the link goes to an out-of-stock Pull Me Under single). I don't even know..

The first release in the 'Lost Not Forgotten Archives' series, 'Images and Words - Live in Japan, 2017', is available for pre-order today, May 14th, and releasing June 25th. This initial entry into our reimagined collectors series is a live recording of our 2017 performance featuring the classic album, 'Images and Words', performed in full at Japan's legendary Budokan arena.  Released on CD as well as vinyl and digital for the first time, you can purchase and stream through your favorite music service. The exclusive autographed, ultra-clear vinyl version is limited to just 250 copies, and available only through https://lostnotforgottenarchives.dreamtheater.net/

Listen to 'Pull Me Under (Live at Budokan, Tokyo, Japan, 2017)' and pre-order all formats here: https://dream-theater.lnk.to/LostNotForgottenArchives-ImagesAndWords-LiveInJapan2017

[goo-goo]

www.lasercd.com has links up. CD, Black vinyl, and Coke bottle vinyl.

[Trav]

Has anyone considered the possibility that there hasn't been any serious push to cobble something together for a live rendition of The Astonishing b/c there's simply neither demand nor interest for it?

Argue all you want, but the people who champion the album are in reality the vocal minority.  DT couldn't even do a full tour on it before having to drop some of the album's songs and inserting more standard stuff.

In the end, for all intents and purpose, people just didn't like the album.  No amount of acting incredulous and being in disbelief at the lack of a live capture of it isn't going to change this fact.

Yeah, I assumed this would be common knowledge.  But, it doesn't seem to be the case. Outside of this forum, TA is usually considered their worst album.

If you listen to the podcast Talk Is Jericho, that has JP and JLB on it. Chris Jericho is asking a question about TA and can't remember the name. He says something like "I always want to call it The Reckoning". To which JLB replies "it was our reckoning". Jokingly, but...they know it's not that popular.

[ZirconBlue]

www.lasercd.com has links up. CD, Black vinyl, and Coke bottle vinyl.

Amazon has it up, as well, but the prices are higher than lasercd (although shipping costs may negate the difference).


Amazon link: https://smile.amazon.com/Lost-Not-Forgotten-Archives-Images/dp/B093B6J6Y2/ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1621003806&sr=8-1

[bosk1]

Has anyone considered the possibility that there hasn't been any serious push to cobble something together for a live rendition of The Astonishing b/c there's simply neither demand nor interest for it?

Argue all you want, but the people who champion the album are in reality the vocal minority.  DT couldn't even do a full tour on it before having to drop some of the album's songs and inserting more standard stuff.

In the end, for all intents and purpose, people just didn't like the album.  No amount of acting incredulous and being in disbelief at the lack of a live capture of it isn't going to change this fact.

Eh, there is some truth to that, but it is only part of the picture.  Interest in the album was lower than the band expected.  That is true.  And it is what it is.  But the album was not panned by the fanbase as a whole.  Album sales numbers and concert tickets on the first leg of the tour support that.  It didn't do great.  But it did okay.  Acting like most of the fanbase hated it just isn't accurate.  But, yes, less people liked it than the band had expected.  That is true.  And that was a factor.  As I have shared here, JP told me one of the factors in not recording it was that he didn't think there was a big enough demand to justify it. 

But the bolded part above is not really accurate because it misplaces the causation.  They didn't change the set because people didn't like the album.  They changed the set because the second leg of the tour was booked incorrectly.  The second U.S. leg was supposed to only hit cities and regions they had not yet visited on the tour, and they were planning on playing the entire thing as they previously had.  Somebody (and I'm not naming names) dropped the ball and booked them in many of the same places they had already been.  When you take into account that interest was already lower for this album, and that the show was identical from night to night, it is no wonder that there was a pretty steep dropoff in ticket sales when they came back to places where they had already presented "The Astonishing live."  The change in the set was a reaction to that.  I.e., they could see that demand to see the show in the same place for a second time dropped off, so they were attempting to somewhat address that.  So it isn't really that they couldn't do a "full tour" no the strength of The Astonishing.  It's more that they couldn't do a second leg of the tour in the same places they had already hit.  That's an important distinction.

[countoftuscany42]

The links all seem to be working now, which variants did everyone order? I liked the color of the century media and revolver exclusives, but the street date for revolver's isn't until September (different manufacturing schedule?) and both of these variants are $10-15 more than what's on lasercd, so I went with the coke bottle green they have.  Guess it's a good thing the Live Scenes LP set didn't get made right now for the sake of my wallet 

[Trav]

Bosk, I guess I misunderstood something. I was under the impression that the Images and Words Anniversary tour was done because of a mistake in booking. Not the second leg of the North American TA tour.  I thought that is why the I&W tour came so quickly after the previous one.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Album sales numbers and concert tickets on the first leg of the tour support that.

Just out of curiosity is there a reliable source that we can check on these numbers and I'd be interested not only for DT but for other bands as well.

[bosk1]

Bosk, I guess I misunderstood something. I was under the impression that the Images and Words Anniversary tour was done because of a mistake in booking. Not the second leg of the North American TA tour.  I thought that is why the I&W tour came so quickly after the previous one.

The second leg got booked while they were still out on tour.  By the time they saw that many of the dates were in metropolitan areas they had already played on the first leg, it was too late to do anything about that.  They couldn't really NOT do The Astonishing at that point because that is what they were touring under, what the tour was all set up for, etc.  But they felt the need to change things up a little bit, so they came up with the three-song "hits" encore to try to get the best of both worlds, and still present "The Astonishing" since that is how the tour was booked, with something extra to try to get fans to come back a second time.  I forget the exact timing, but if I am remembering correctly, it was a few dates into the second leg when they made the change.  So to be clear:  They modified the set on the second U.S. leg because the second leg had been misbooked and had them playing a lot of places they had already played The Astonishing.

Regarding the I&W25 tour, I can't say that anything on the TA tour wasn't a factor.  But it wasn't the primary factor.  The primary reason for doing it was that they realized that the 25th anniversary of I&W was coming up, and they really wanted to celebrate it, since it was their biggest album and the album that broke them.  Remember that, although I would definitely NOT call them a "nostalgia" band since they continue to put out new material and to heavily support it on tour, they also have a long history of celebrating album anniversaries for landmark albums.  I think the decision to have the entire show focus on "fan favorites" throughout their set was likely a reaction to the TA tour.  But the decision to do it in the first place was largely independent.

[bosk1]

Album sales numbers and concert tickets on the first leg of the tour support that.

Just out of curiosity is there a reliable source that we can check on these numbers and I'd be interested not only for DT but for other bands as well.

No idea.  My info comes from the band and management.

[gzarruk]

Bosk, I guess I misunderstood something. I was under the impression that the Images and Words Anniversary tour was done because of a mistake in booking. Not the second leg of the North American TA tour.  I thought that is why the I&W tour came so quickly after the previous one.

The second leg got booked while they were still out on tour.  By the time they saw that many of the dates were in metropolitan areas they had already played on the first leg, it was too late to do anything about that.  They couldn't really NOT do The Astonishing at that point because that is what they were touring under, what the tour was all set up for, etc.  But they felt the need to change things up a little bit, so they came up with the three-song "hits" encore to try to get the best of both worlds, and still present "The Astonishing" since that is how the tour was booked, with something extra to try to get fans to come back a second time.  I forget the exact timing, but if I am remembering correctly, it was a few dates into the second leg when they made the change.  So to be clear:  They modified the set on the second U.S. leg because the second leg had been misbooked and had them playing a lot of places they had already played The Astonishing.

Regarding the I&W25 tour, I can't say that anything on the TA tour wasn't a factor.  But it wasn't the primary factor.  The primary reason for doing it was that they realized that the 25th anniversary of I&W was coming up, and they really wanted to celebrate it, since it was their biggest album and the album that broke them.  Remember that, although I would definitely NOT call them a "nostalgia" band since they continue to put out new material and to heavily support it on tour, they also have a long history of celebrating album anniversaries for landmark albums.  I think the decision to have the entire show focus on "fan favorites" throughout their set was likely a reaction to the TA tour.  But the decision to do it in the first place was largely independent.

IIRC, JP said they were only planning to do a small run of dates for the IWAB tour, but promoters went crazy (in a good way) about it and wanted THAT show, so it ended up being a year-long tour.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I think that's right.

I know I've mentioned this before, but JP showed me the set list backstage after the Reno show on the TA second leg, and he was SO excited about it. 

[Setlist Scotty]

Ending derailment, this is PMU at Budokan in 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLeRLHzC1rc) My second favourite version to date, along with Luna Park.

Interesting. Not a big fan of the down tuning. And to be quite honest, PMU live never sounds quite as good as the studio version - especially the beginning of it. But if I was to select my favorite live version, it would probably be the warped version they did on World Tourbulence.

I forget the exact timing, but if I am remembering correctly, it was a few dates into the second leg when they made the change.  So to be clear:  They modified the set on the second U.S. leg because the second leg had been misbooked and had them playing a lot of places they had already played The Astonishing.

Actually, they only made the change for the last 16 shows of that leg - the first 18 were the full album like the rest of the tour.

[gzarruk]

Ending derailment, this is PMU at Budokan in 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLeRLHzC1rc) My second favourite version to date, along with Luna Park.

Interesting. Not a big fan of the down tuning. And to be quite honest, PMU live never sounds quite as good as the studio version - especially the beginning of it. But if I was to select my favorite live version, it would probably be the warped version they did on World Tourbulence.

Never heard about that! Got any links where I could check that one out?

[Max Kuehnau]

Ending derailment, this is PMU at Budokan in 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLeRLHzC1rc) My second favourite version to date, along with Luna Park.

Interesting. Not a big fan of the down tuning. And to be quite honest, PMU live never sounds quite as good as the studio version - especially the beginning of it. But if I was to select my favorite live version, it would probably be the warped version they did on World Tourbulence.

Never heard about that! Got any links where I could check that one out?

Scotty will gladly correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, it's on Live At Budokan too (in 2004 in that case of course). And yes, when I attended the 6D tour in 2002, anytime they played it on that tour, it was said warped version.

[sfam2112]

Ending derailment, this is PMU at Budokan in 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLeRLHzC1rc) My second favourite version to date, along with Luna Park.

Interesting. Not a big fan of the down tuning. And to be quite honest, PMU live never sounds quite as good as the studio version - especially the beginning of it. But if I was to select my favorite live version, it would probably be the warped version they did on World Tourbulence.

Never heard about that! Got any links where I could check that one out?

Scotty will gladly correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, it's on Live At Budokan too (in 2004 in that case of course). And yes, when I attended the 6D tour in 2002, anytime they played it on that tour, it was said warped version.

The warped version is not on L@B '04. It is featured on the Bucharest 2002 official bootleg.
It wasn't warped every time for World Tourbulence. The version on the Beacon Theater bootleg is mostly normal except for when they double time that one section before "Watch the sparrow falling...". It's that way on L@B '04, as well.

[Max Kuehnau]

Ah yes, you're right, it was on Bucharest. (I've watched both, confused them apparently)

[Setlist Scotty]

The warped version is not on L@B '04. It is featured on the Bucharest 2002 official bootleg.
It wasn't warped every time for World Tourbulence.

Correct. 

The version on the Beacon Theater bootleg is mostly normal except for when they double time that one section before "Watch the sparrow falling...". It's that way on L@B '04, as well.

Actually, it's both sped up and slowed down, hence why it is referred to as "warped". You're right about the sped up part in the middle, but don't forget that at the end, they slow down to a crawl. 

[Max Kuehnau]

The warped version is not on L@B '04. It is featured on the Bucharest 2002 official bootleg.
It wasn't warped every time for World Tourbulence.

Correct. 

The version on the Beacon Theater bootleg is mostly normal except for when they double time that one section before "Watch the sparrow falling...". It's that way on L@B '04, as well.

Actually, it's both sped up and slowed down, hence why it is referred to as "warped". You're right about the sped up part in the middle, but don't forget that at the end, they slow down to a crawl.

and I remember that bit very well still to this day. (and I only said that they played the warped version during the four shows I attended. I thought: oh well, what happens now, this is weird. Unusual twist of the arrangement there IMHO. I'd love to know whose idea that was seriously. MP's I guess.)