Mesa, AZ 2/2/2022 - Mesa Arts Center (Setlist Spoilers)

[gzarruk]

It's sad to see him doing this, specially in this day and age where there's hundreds, if not thousands, of small cameras all pointing at them from different angles. He can try to hide it from some people, but never from all of them. And, even worse, those videos get uploaded to youtube and then a lot more people see this clearly.

The other thing is, if he seems to be struggling with that particular song, why play it at all? Just choose something else or even an instrumental to give him more rests through the set. There's just no valid excuse here.

Like I said in a previous post, I have no issues at all with piped in backing vocals/extra stuff being added, because 1. those enhance the songs and 2. it's not like they are a 10 piece band that can faithfully recreate everything that was done in the studio. Even JP's mic being almost muted I can understand, because he's just a support vocalist, not the main one (though I'd rather have him not bother trying since he's pretty much inaudible in shows anyway). But what James has been doing here, even though it seems like he's doing it just for that song, shouldn't be acceptable.

[Kram]

This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g

Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.   

The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.

That's what I was thinking - it's the only explanation that makes any sense.  The part he's lip syncing is seemingly the easiest part of the song to sing.

[OsMosis2259]

I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.

The BITS portion though... Let's not fool ourselves... It is definitely disappointing to see because it's a lead vocal and there is clearly an attempt to "lip-sync". The "lip-sync" was also very obvious... It could have been covered up much more efficiently.

Overall, I would highly tailor the set towards what James is more comfortable singing. If the "Shaman" line in BITS is difficult, it could have been replaced by a song like Lost Not Forgotten or Breaking All Illusions. Anyway, those are just my thoughts... I'm looking forward to seeing them again on 3/4.

[TAC]

I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.

They do??

[Dream Team]

This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g

Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.   

Yeah, it's pretty obvious he's lip syncing there, given he's kinda hiding his face in exactly the same position as at other shows, but especially where he sings "my life" and the vocal is continuing even though he pulls the mic away from his face here https://youtu.be/3UNQP0FN39g?t=434

The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.

My goodness. Why bother to have a "live" show. How much longer until we get to Milli Vanilli territory. I'm with TAC 100%, this is not what you want from a rock band. You expect it from someone like Britney Spears with 0% authentic talent, not DT. Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything. Rant over.

[SeRoX]

This is from the Milwaukee gig 3 day ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNQP0FN39g

Basically James is not singing at all during the part at 6:55 ("And at last the time has come...")
I really hoped it was something to last only for the first few gigs. It's quite weird - it's not that hard compared to other things he sings -, especially the way he's, unsuccessfully, trying to hide it.   

Yeah, it's pretty obvious he's lip syncing there, given he's kinda hiding his face in exactly the same position as at other shows, but especially where he sings "my life" and the vocal is continuing even though he pulls the mic away from his face here https://youtu.be/3UNQP0FN39g?t=434

The only explanation I can come up with is so that they're doing this so that he can actually sing live the final line "Shaman take my hand" and hold the note longer, which appears live to me.

My goodness. Why bother to have a "live" show. How much longer until we get to Milli Vanilli territory. I'm with TAC 100%, this is not what you want from a rock band. You expect it from someone like Britney Spears with 0% authentic talent, not DT. Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything. Rant over.

Wow, really? I mean I'm also questioning James' choice using lip syncing for a line but telling him preseve his dignity or leave the band is a bit far.

[Ben_Jamin]

Doesn't surprise me one bit.

Dream Theater is a well produced music entity. The band is a business, first and foremost in the eyes of JP, and quite possibly the other guys. It's their source of income, so they have to find ways to generate it. If they want the best production and want to play certain songs as well, you make compromises. And with the technology available today, why not utilize it for certain spots that are difficult.

I for one find this interesting in the perspective of taking away the live value of music.

For one, Dream Theater fans, I feel, expect too much from the guys. They go out of their way to sound as perfect as possible each and every night, yet one slip up and the fans lose their shit.

If they want to sound as perfect as possible and want to utilize technology, why can't they? Why is acceptable for someone like Beyonce, but not for the sacred, all mighty Dream Theater?

Also, if the band wants to play a song, why can't they if they're singer can't do it. There's loads of shows where the singer sounds like shit and completely ruins the song, yet they're still playing the song.

If you don't expect the band to sound perfect each night, and don't care if they screw up, you wouldn't mind if they mess up.

What is interesting are the reasons for why people listen to Dream Theater and being technically proficient in their musical craft is one of them. The expectations are high from the start and people expect that proficiency live. I actually know people who laugh and say things like, "Dream Theater doesn't need a vocalist." which implies how they view JLBs vocals.

I for one dont care about his vocals, but after hearing people complain about your live vocals being bad, how else can you fix it if you still want to play those songs?

That's why I say bands should just disregard completely what the fans want and do whatever they feel is best for the band. The situation of the relationship between fan and musician, I feel, is best portrayed in Marillions The Leavers Suite.

[TAC]

For one, Dream Theater fans, I feel, expect too much from the guys. They go out of their way to sound as perfect as possible each and every night, yet one slip up and the fans lose their shit.

That's not true at all.

[geeeemo]

The two shows I saw, this issue didn't bother my enjoyment of the concert at all.  Even my son, who doesn't always like JLB live, loved the show and JLB as well in it.  I am not expecting perfect - and actually thought it was fun that I actually heard JP make one error.  James Hetfield sounds pretty shitting now by comparison to years ago, but Metallica is still a great show. I do agree, DT fans can be way too  picky.

[DreamerTV]

I actually have nothing against the use of technology, but as I'm not looking for perfection either I'd prefer a more "honest" performance.
Change the melody, downtune the song, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, make mistakes even but please give me something as a human and not that poor attempt to act like you're so into the song you can't even look at me.

[nikatapi]

I actually have nothing against the use of technology, but as I'm not looking for perfection either I'd prefer a more "honest" performance.
Change the melody, downtune the song, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, make mistakes even but please give me something as a human and not that poor attempt to act like you're so into the song you can't even look at me.

That's what bugs me the most.
I still remember James' appearance on a podcast/interview at the time the last "Distant Memories" live was released, and he was adamant that "it's all live".
Yeah it's all live, with a shit ton of pitch correction.

But pitch correction i can live with in a release. Seeing James lipsync is something i can't support.

[crystalstars17]

It's unbelievable that this dead horse is still being beaten on this thread. Enough already!

[pg1067]

For one, Dream Theater fans, I feel, expect too much from the guys. They go out of their way to sound as perfect as possible each and every night, yet one slip up and the fans lose their shit.

That's not at all true.  There's been discussion about James choking on a piece of gum.  That's a relatively unprofessional slip up, yet folks found it endearing (I haven't seen it, but I agree).  I've never once noticed a bad note, but I keep reading comments with JP and JR talking about how they missed notes or missed cues.  It's not a big deal.  There's one on the LSFNY DVD that I'd never have noticed if they didn't mention it in the commentary track.

If they want to sound as perfect as possible and want to utilize technology, why can't they? Why is acceptable for someone like Beyonce, but not for the sacred, all mighty Dream Theater?

I don't have any opinions about Beyonce, but it's rather obvious she hasn't built her reputation on playing complex music.  The issue with DT is the line between using technology to bolster genuine performances and lip-synching.  The former is fine with me (although I would prefer not having it).  The latter is NOT.

Also, if the band wants to play a song, why can't they if they're singer can't do it. There's loads of shows where the singer sounds like shit and completely ruins the song, yet they're still playing the song.

"The band" includes the singer.  I've read people say that The Glass Prison hasn't been played since whenever because it's really hard for JP.  Well...if the other four guys want to play it, why shouldn't JP suck it up?  If one member of the band doesn't want to do the song because it's inordinately difficult/impossible to do well, and if the singer can't sing the song to the point that it "completely ruins the song," then don't do it.  It's not like DT is lacking for songs to play.

[gzarruk]

I actually have nothing against the use of technology, but as I'm not looking for perfection either I'd prefer a more "honest" performance.
Change the melody, downtune the song, do whatever you feel is more comfortable, make mistakes even but please give me something as a human and not that poor attempt to act like you're so into the song you can't even look at me.

This. These guys aren't in their 20s/30s anymore, there's no shame in admitting "hey guys, I can't really sing/play this or that anymore, maybe we should do another song instead". And fans DO understand that. Maybe some don't, but for the most part I'd say they do. And I think people wouldn't mind it so much if they were given the truth instead of *trying* to fake some stuff in order to maintain a certain "illusion" of perfection.

Having said that, I'd still go to any of these shows in a heartbeat if I had the chance to. This is my favorite band, it has been for the past 12+ years, and that won't change anytime soon.

[Kram]

I still remember James' appearance on a podcast/interview at the time the last "Distant Memories" live was released, and he was adamant that "it's all live".

Good point, I remember that comment as well.  It's not holding up to well right now, is it?

[crystalstars17]

Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything.

This is really nothing but mean. Can you do any better?

Honestly, if James left the band, I would never spend money to go and see them ever again - any more than I would spend money to see Queensryche without Geoff Tate, Iron Maiden without Bruce Dickinson, or Foreigner without Lou Gramm. Nor would I ever again care to hear another new album. He's my favorite singer of all time and he IS the band to me.

I think some here tend to forget that there is a contingent of the fandom who does feel this way. His voice was literally a lifeline for me in a difficult time of my life and I told him so in not as many words at a meet and greet several years ago. Say whatever you want but I won't stop defending the greatest of our time.

[gzarruk]

Honestly, if James left the band, I would never spend money to go and see them ever again - any more than I would spend money to see Queensryche without Geoff Tate, Iron Maiden without Bruce Dickinson, or Foreigner without Lou Gramm. Nor would I ever again care to hear another new album. He's my favorite singer of all time and he IS the band to me.

I think some here tend to forget that there is a contingent of the fandom who does feel this way. His voice was literally a lifeline for me in a difficult time of my life and I told him so in not as many words at a meet and greet several years ago. Say whatever you want but I won't stop defending the greatest of our time.

I'm not in the anti-James camp or anything like that, and I listen to him singing pretty much daily

BUT, people were saying the same thing about MP with DT, and yet here we are 11+ years later. I'd say JP is the only "irreplaceable" member here.

[bosk1]

Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything.

This is really nothing but mean. Can you do any better?

Honestly, if James left the band, I would never spend money to go and see them ever again - any more than I would spend money to see Queensryche without Geoff Tate, Iron Maiden without Bruce Dickinson, or Foreigner without Lou Gramm. Nor would I ever again care to hear another new album. He's my favorite singer of all time and he IS the band to me.

I think some here tend to forget that there is a contingent of the fandom who does feel this way. His voice was literally a lifeline for me in a difficult time of my life and I told him so in not as many words at a meet and greet several years ago. Say whatever you want but I won't stop defending the greatest of our time.

I don't ever want to see James replaced.  And I agree that a lot of the criticism he gets is stupid and unfounded.  But your point about not listening to a band at all if they replace a singer who, to you, "is the band," that's just silly.  I can't say I wouldn't listen to them anymore if they got a new singer any more than I would have said I wouldn't listen to them with a new drummer when Portnoy left.  I mean, if you make a snap judgement like that without ever even hearing how they sound, then it seems like the music isn't even a top priority for you.  And I don't find the examples you gave to be very persuasive in making the point. 

For the Maiden example, I'm not really interested in them without Bruce.  But I listened to the first two albums and the two Blaze albums before making decisions about them.  As it turns out, I don't care for them and don't have them in my collection (actually, I do have Killers, but don't really listen to it).  But I at least listened to see what they sounded like.

For Queensryche, despite Tate's once-in-a-generation talent, he ruined the band in the later years.  But as with Maiden, I wanted to listen to the Todd albums before making any decisions.  Turns out, I love them and listen to them much more than any of the post-DeGarmo Tate albums (other than maybe American Soldier).  Tate's voice is iconic.  But they did well in replacing him.

On and on we could go.  Some replacements worked out well.  Some didn't.  But if I love a band, I think it would be stupid for me to make a decision on whether to listen to their music before actually hearing the music. 

[crystalstars17]

I agree that a lot of the criticism he gets is stupid and unfounded.

This is exactly my point!!!!!  Thank you!!!!

But your point about not listening to a band at all if they replace a singer who, to you, "is the band," that's just silly.  I can't say I wouldn't listen to them anymore if they got a new singer any more than I would have said I wouldn't listen to them with a new drummer when Portnoy left.  I mean, if you make a snap judgement like that without ever even hearing how they sound, then it seems like the music isn't even a top priority for you.

Respectfully, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I'm just biased maybe, as a singer myself, I relate mostly to singers. It doesn't mean at all that I don't love the music. On the contrary, and of course I similarly respect the other members of the band and their amazing contrtibutions.

There's no right or wrong way to process how one relates to music. All music and art is subjective, and if it's reaching us on a visceral, emotional level then it's doing its job.

[Dublagent66]

Now, if they had encored with BAI, I would've kicked myself for missing the show.  Looks like I stayed out of kicking distance. 

[KevShmev]

I'm totally in agreement to use backing tracks as a backing track and to enhance the live experience... Every band does this.

They do??

No, they do not.  Plenty of bands do not use backing tracks at live shows.  I won't list any because that would elicit the "yeah, but those bands suck anyway, so who cares?"-type retorts, which would be missing the point.

[nobloodyname]

Really James should preserve his dignity and let a younger singer take over, or you know TUNE DOWN everything.

Can you do any better?

You've posted some interesting bits and pieces but... do what? What's that got to do with the price of cheese?

[crystalstars17]

* * *

[nikatapi]

.. do what?

Umm.... SING.

People here and elsewhere love to find fault with James, but many of them know nothing about voices or the process of singing and likely can't sing a note themselves. Yet they criticize James mercilessly as a scapegoat. Why him?! What does doing that have to do with anything? How is this complaining productive? The band has made their decisions most likely in the best interest of caring for his voice.

What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread. It originated with a known troll on another site and it's surprising to see that the majority here still believe it. But evidently James is everyone's favorite scapegoat, so this garbage proliferates, even among his supposed biggest fans.

You have to understand that many of us are hardcore DT as well as James' fans, and have been for so many years now. We have stood by him many times despite his declining voice (which is natural given that he gets older).

Lipsync is not a myth, at least for the specific passage in Bridges In The Sky. It's evident from many different videos. It's not a genuine approach and we have come to expect honesty from the band after all these years.

[crystalstars17]

You have to understand that many of us are hardcore DT as well as James' fans, and have been for so many years now. We have stood by him many times despite his declining voice (which is natural given that he gets older).

I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think he is "declining" as much as everyone seems to think. I won't reiterate here everything I said pages ago now about vocal technique and what I believe his (former) technical issues were, but will say that it can happen to any singer, and as long as they realize there's a problem and correct it, they can sing healthily for a lifetime.

Lipsync is not a myth, at least for the specific passage in Bridges In The Sky. It's evident from many different videos. It's not a genuine approach and we have come to expect honesty from the band after all these years.

Of course we expect their honesty but the apparent picking apart of videos made on phones does not equal fact! For my part I will believe nothing less until I see this "lipsyncing" with my own eyes in person in two weeks.

[Deadeye21]

What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread. It originated with a known troll on another site and it's surprising to see that the majority here still believe it. But evidently James is everyone's favorite scapegoat, so this garbage proliferates, even among his supposed biggest fans.

Sorry mate, but it's not a myth. I'd love nothing more than to pretend it was, I'd love to think it was an isolated incident, but the fact of the matter is that one repeating passage in Bridges in the Sky is being lipsynced. And we feel for the guy, it's gotta be hard. It's not just "James is the favourite scapegoat". Sure, we're overlooking some irregularities with the other guys making mistakes on the opening few nights and MM's little "diva" moments of chucking his sticks and walking off stage after View. They've all had some off nights while blowing off the dust. But the footage doesn't lie, we've all analysed it. We wouldn't mind it if the line sounded terrible, at least it would sound live. But he's holding a very odd pose on those lines as to hide that he's not singing it, and the vocal sounds like it's coming from elsewhere than the lines either side of it.
Believe me, I'd love to defend it, but this is what it is. Great thing is, it's only 2 minutes out of 120, and the 2 minutes aren't in an overly iconic moment. If he needs to rest to hit the "shaman, take my hand", then I say let the man rest.

As a Bond fan, I feel the need to quote Gareth Mallory from Skyfall. "There's no shame in admitting you've lost a step". He's doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall. But this moment, being the irregularity, will always fall under such a scrutiny.

[nikatapi]

What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread. It originated with a known troll on another site and it's surprising to see that the majority here still believe it. But evidently James is everyone's favorite scapegoat, so this garbage proliferates, even among his supposed biggest fans.

Sorry mate, but it's not a myth. I'd love nothing more than to pretend it was, I'd love to think it was an isolated incident, but the fact of the matter is that one repeating passage in Bridges in the Sky is being lipsynced. And we feel for the guy, it's gotta be hard. It's not just "James is the favourite scapegoat". Sure, we're overlooking some irregularities with the other guys making mistakes on the opening few nights and MM's little "diva" moments of chucking his sticks and walking off stage after View. They've all had some off nights while blowing off the dust. But the footage doesn't lie, we've all analysed it. We wouldn't mind it if the line sounded terrible, at least it would sound live. But he's holding a very odd pose on those lines as to hide that he's not singing it, and the vocal sounds like it's coming from elsewhere than the lines either side of it.
Believe me, I'd love to defend it, but this is what it is. Great thing is, it's only 2 minutes out of 120, and the 2 minutes aren't in an overly iconic moment. If he needs to rest to hit the "shaman, take my hand", then I say let the man rest.

As a Bond fan, I feel the need to quote Gareth Mallory from Skyfall. "There's no shame in admitting you've lost a step". He's doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall. But this moment, being the irregularity, will always fall under such a scrutiny.

Great post. And actually on other songs i've seen James has performed better than i would expect (Endless Sacrifice for example, the "over the distance" section is pretty good!).
But the obvious fact is that for the first time we have evidence of lip-sync on a DT live concert. And i don't want to point this to James only, the rest of the band is to blame as well for going along with it.

[TAC]

He's doing a great job on 99% of the setlist overall.

Well, he wasn't though. The clips from the first week were excruciating to watch. I did watch a few clips from the Denver show, and he seems to be a little better as the tour progresses.

[crystalstars17]

* * *

[nikatapi]

This is the place where I expect everyone to be true fans and behave as such, and not join in all the gratuitous trashing of the same band member over and over again that you see everywhere.

I do enjoy interacting here and hope I have not alienated enough of you that we can't still have a constructive and enjoyable discourse as fellow fans of the greatest band of all time.

Well we always argue here, that's the nature of DT fanbase
I don't really see the "true fans" argument though, does this mean that we stopped loving the band or the members?

When we have invested so much time (and money) in the band, i guess it's fair to be disappointed by specific choices. And in this case, as we've discussed a lot, many of us would prefer alterations to the set/tonality of the songs instead of using phoned-in vocals. We said ok for the backing vocals, but replacing the main line and pretending to sing (he might actually sing but we can't hear it) is a bit too much, for a band that's build their reputation on integrity and stellar live performances.

[gzarruk]

Somebody posted on the "official" DT Facebook group about that section in BITS that seems to be lip-synced (something that is completely valid for discussion, IMO) and his post just "vanished", if you know what I mean.

I was able to read/comment on it before it got deleted by the mods and it was not disrespectful towards James or anybody, the guy was just raising a serious concern about this particular new "practice", specially when there's enough recorded evidence for it.

This is something I would expect from the MP group (censoring that kind of discussion), not the DT one.

[crystalstars17]

When we have invested so much time (and money) in the band, i guess it's fair to be disappointed by specific choices. And in this case, as we've discussed a lot, many of us would prefer alterations to the set/tonality of the songs instead of using phoned-in vocals. We said ok for the backing vocals, but replacing the main line and pretending to sing (he might actually sing but we can't hear it) is a bit too much, for a band that's build their reputation on integrity and stellar live performances.

Of course and I don't think anyone has stopped loving the band. This, and the above report of deleted FB posts, is indeed disappointing.

There's nothing in that song that James isn't capable of at this time. In fact I applaud their choices of older songs this time as they are from a time when he was singing well, which is something that is actually healthy for a singer who is reconnecting with good muscle memory and singing habits. It's a good song to get him back connected to the breath support for those sustained, soaring legato lines.

[UndercoverMyung]

James is the voice of DT.
If he's out, I'm out.
If he's replaced, I hope the band fails. They'd deserve it.
I love all of the DT guys, but if they kicked out James, I'd be done.

[pg1067]

People here and elsewhere love to find fault with James, but many of them know nothing about voices or the process of singing and likely can't sing a note themselves. Yet they criticize James mercilessly as a scapegoat.

So...you're making ignorant conclusions about what the mostly anonymous strangers here do and do not know about?  Lots of folks here are or have been professional musicians and have been listening to rock/metal/prog music for 30/40/50 years.  That alone qualifies us to have opinions about what we do and don't like.  This sounds like the quarterback who lashes out at a sportswriter's opinion with the tired retort of "oh...well...you've never played the position, so what do you know?"  Ridiculous.

How is this complaining productive?

This is a forum for expressing opinions.  Not all will be positive.  Will our expressing opinions change anything?  Probably not, but suggesting that folks expressing opinions is unproductive is not really a valid point of view.

What I don't like is the perpetuation of this internet myth that he was lipsyncing, a myth that is unfounded and was already debunked earlier on in this thread.

Whether it's a myth or not, there IS evidence to support the notion.  I don't know if it's true or not,* but no one has "debunked" anything.

People seem to point to the fact that he's "hiding" during that section, but I don't think that's conclusive (or even) good evidence.  What I know from what I've seen (both live and on YouTube) is that things with the vocals seemed quite off.

I just expected more, perhaps, from an official fan site than to see its members perpetuate the same tired arguments as you see in lesser places on the internet. This is the place where I expect everyone to be true fans and behave as such, and not join in all the gratuitous trashing of the same band member over and over again that you see everywhere.

Maybe the reason that these "tired argument" are being "perpetuated" is because they have merit.  Also, please define exactly what it means to be a "true fan."  If it means quietly accepting whatever is offered, no matter how inferior it might be, without any complaint or objection, then I don't want to be a "true fan."

[TAC]

James is the voice of DT.
If he's out, I'm out.
If he's replaced, I hope the band fails. They'd deserve it.
I love all of the DT guys, but if they kicked out James, I'd be done.

Wow!