Parasomnia Timeline Thread

[Adami]

It's common sense.

 

[KevShmev]

As much as I am sick to my stomach to do so, I have to agree with Stadler about track lengths. The idea that long songers are better or more exciting simply because they're long is not something I can at all connect to.

10 songs of 5 minutes, or 4 songs of 20 minutes each, or 1 70 minute song, or whatever. None of it matters. Bad songs can be short, long, or middle length and so can good songs.

100%.

[Wim Kruithof]

As much as I am sick to my stomach to do so, I have to agree with Stadler about track lengths. The idea that long songers are better or more exciting simply because they're long is not something I can at all connect to.

10 songs of 5 minutes, or 4 songs of 20 minutes each, or 1 70 minute song, or whatever. None of it matters. Bad songs can be short, long, or middle length and so can good songs.

Of course I can't disagree, but what I love about longer songs are theme's or structures that vary from one another but keep coming back in different forms. I also love the whole journey, when there's metal, rough riffs, ballad-passages and als classic influences, which all have a place in the same track.

And Dream Theater can develop such a theme to pure art.

edit: but of course, they manage to do this in shorter songs as well. But in Dream Theater world I do believe more is more. More songlength, (mostly) more for me to dive in.

[illusionist]

For me too, longer songs>shorter songs, at least when we talk about DT.
They have written beautiful songs, either in short format or in long.
But personally i love their Breaking all illusions's, Sleeping giant's, Blind faith's, A change of seasons's and Avfttotw's more than their The looking glass's, Never enough's and Caught in a web's, which i also very much enjoy.
Their longer songs take you on a ride, with their ups and downs, and are so unpredictable that you hold your breath not knowing what lies ahead.
Buy yeah, they do have longer songs i don't like (TMOLS) as well as short ones i love (Hell's kitchen).
Plus i think they experimented extensively on the concept of shorter songs in their MM era, that now i believe it's time for them to go back to crazier structures, longer songs and changing things up a little.

[Wim Kruithof]

Buy yeah, they do have longer songs i don't like (TMOLS)...

Did you've been to the View-tour? The Ministry of Lost Souls was an absolute highlight for me. I liked the song before, but love it ever since.

[Trav]

It's a "prog" fan thing where a lot of people seem to make a big deal about song lengths. It's always been kinda weird to me.

[MirrorMask]

Their longer songs take you on a ride, with their ups and downs, and are so unpredictable that you hold your breath not knowing what lies ahead.

Well, there was a time where you knew what was lying ahead: intro, verse / chorus verse / chorus, sudden solo section conjured up in LTE mode, final chorus.

I remember the first time I heard The Alien, when the solo section started with that sudden mood change after the chorus I was like "yeah ok I guess now it's time for the mandatory solo section that will last quite a while". A View from the Top of the World, obviously, is not that like that, so I hope the long-ish songs will be actually unpredictable and not just a normally structured song with 4 minutes of LTE in the middle.

[Stadler]

Of course I can't disagree, but what I love about longer songs are theme's or structures that vary from one another but keep coming back in different forms. I also love the whole journey, when there's metal, rough riffs, ballad-passages and als classic influences, which all have a place in the same track.

And Dream Theater can develop such a theme to pure art.

edit: but of course, they manage to do this in shorter songs as well. But in Dream Theater world I do believe more is more. More songlength, (mostly) more for me to dive in.

But without being argumentative, that can all happen - or not - regardless of the length of the song. Hey, you do you; if that's what gets you into the band, that's a great thing (no sarcasm at all).  I just know for me, there's no correlation whatsoever.  There are too many albums where the "long song" is the worst - or one of the worst - songs on the record, and too often done for the sake of it.  I remember when Flying colors came out and they announced the tracks with the lengths and everyone was all "Infinite Fire" is so AWESOME! and they never even heard the song yet!  Turns out, for me, it's barely top five on the record (For the record, that would be Kayla, Better Than Walking Away, The Storm, Everything Changes, Infinite Fire).

(And fair play, it's as much a me problem as anyone else; Fish is going through his final cycle on album, tour, etc. and if one more jack hole brings up "Grendel" in one of those passive-agressive "asks" that so many fans do, I'm going to scream.  Grendel BLOWS. I get it, some like it, and that's fine you like what you like, but Fish has been clear he doesn't want to play it, doesn't like it, doesn't think it aged well, and Marillion don't want to play it, don't like it, don't think it aged well, so give it a rest. If you like it, put it on in your bedroom and listen to it to your hearts content.)

Where's the coffee???

[Progmaniac1988]

I think a big Dream Theater epic is something special (although AVFTTOTW did not age well for me, and is probably my least favorite DT epic and one of the songs I sometimes just don't listen to when listening to view.), but it's why many of us get excited to see longer songs. We want to go for that big ride. Yes shorter songs can have twists and turns, but it's not the same as the journey of a DT epic imho.

For me personally I like DT albums with a mix. Scenes, images, awake, dramatic turn, octavarium... to name a few examples. I do LOVE six degrees tho, and those are all epics...

So I think it really just depends on the quality of the music, and the structure of the album. Images, octavarium and even TOT for example have perfect structures to my ears. I feel you get more and more sucked in as the album progresses. They could release a album of twelve 6ish min songs and it could be amazing, vice versa we could get a album of epics that's amazing... personally I'd love a mix, but I'm happy with whatever as long as it's great.

[TAC]

The thing about getting the song lengths is that it just gives everyone an additional talking point. It doesn't actually mean anything but it gives the fans something to think about, if they wish.

[evilasiojr]

I feel like there's a difference between "let's write an epic" long song, which was the case for the two lastest ones (IT and A View) and songs that seemed to eventually become long in a more natural way. The latest album is a good example of it, the other 10 min long songs are all better than A View in my opinion.

Of course it is objectively hard to tell which songs were naturally long and which are thought out to be like this, but I feel like every time they mention they willingly chose to make the song long, it didn't sound as good as the others.

[pg1067]

Did you've been to the View-tour? The Ministry of Lost Souls was an absolute highlight for me. I liked the song before, but love it ever since.

I really don't like TMOLS, but I thought it was much better live.  Still don't really like the song, though.

There are too many albums where the "long song" is the worst - or one of the worst - songs on the record, and too often done for the sake of it.

Alrighty...how do I feel about the longest song on each DT album:

-- WDADU - The Killing Hand (#1 on the album and #15 overall)

-- I&W - Learning to Live (#1 on the album and #2 overall)

-- Awake - Scarred (#1 on the album and #7 overall)

-- ACOS is my #1 overall song

-- FII - Trial of Tears (#3 on the album and #52 overall)

-- SFAM - Home (#1 on the album and #6 overall)

-- SDOIT - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (#1 on the album and #4 overall)

-- TOT - In the Name of God (#1 on the album and #8 overall)

-- 8VM - Octavarium (#1 on the album and #5 overall)

-- SC - In the Presence of Enemies (#4 on the album and #85 overall)

-- BC&SL - The Count of Tuscany (#1 on the album and #16 overall)

-- ADTOE - Breaking All Illusions (#1 on the album and #12 overall)

-- DT12 - Illumination Theory (#1 on the album and #13 overall)

-- TA - A New Beginning (didn't rank in my top 100)

-- DOT - At Wit's End (#4 on the album and #69 overall)

-- View - A View from the Top of the World (#1 on the album and #48 overall)

Despite the fact that the longest song is my favorite song on 12/15 DT albums, I completely agree that song length is not a good predictor of song quality.  For example, the second longest song on WDADU is my #8 song on the album.

TBH, I don't care about knowing song lengths in advance or names or number of songs.  I miss the days of showing up at a record store and being surprised that [Band] released a new album!  Sadly, "those days are gone now; changed like a leaf on a tree; blown away forever into the cool autumn breeze."

[HOF]

I think track lengths are as much a feature of a song as are guitar solos or double bass drumming or any other stylistic element someone might prefer as a music listener. It doesn't mean the song will be good or bad if it's 10+ minutes, but it makes sense for fans of a band who specialize in that type of music to expect/anticipate/get excited by songs of a certain length. If the track list drops and there are a bunch of 5 minute songs, it certainly wouldn't indicate the quality of those songs, but it would suggest a direction that I think fans of DT would be fair to be disappointed by (though obviously they should reserve judgement until they hear them and all that - but I can see it being a let down if you love a good DT epic and there just isn't one on the album).

The short version is of course track length doesn't = quality, but epic songs are generally a feature and not a bug for prog bands, so I get why people get excited by them.

[Stadler]

I really don't like TMOLS, but I thought it was much better live.  Still don't really like the song, though.


Alrighty...how do I feel about the longest song on each DT album:

-- WDADU - The Killing Hand (#1 on the album and #15 overall)

-- I&W - Learning to Live (#1 on the album and #2 overall)

-- Awake - Scarred (#1 on the album and #7 overall)

-- ACOS is my #1 overall song

-- FII - Trial of Tears (#3 on the album and #52 overall)

-- SFAM - Home (#1 on the album and #6 overall)

-- SDOIT - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (#1 on the album and #4 overall)

-- TOT - In the Name of God (#1 on the album and #8 overall)

-- 8VM - Octavarium (#1 on the album and #5 overall)

-- SC - In the Presence of Enemies (#4 on the album and #85 overall)

-- BC&SL - The Count of Tuscany (#1 on the album and #16 overall)

-- ADTOE - Breaking All Illusions (#1 on the album and #12 overall)

-- DT12 - Illumination Theory (#1 on the album and #13 overall)

-- TA - A New Beginning (didn't rank in my top 100)

-- DOT - At Wit's End (#4 on the album and #69 overall)

-- View - A View from the Top of the World (#1 on the album and #48 overall)

Despite the fact that the longest song is my favorite song on 12/15 DT albums, I completely agree that song length is not a good predictor of song quality.  For example, the second longest song on WDADU is my #8 song on the album.

TBH, I don't care about knowing song lengths in advance or names or number of songs.  I miss the days of showing up at a record store and being surprised that [Band] released a new album!  Sadly, "those days are gone now; changed like a leaf on a tree; blown away forever into the cool autumn breeze."

Well I boxed myself into a corner with "worst" or "near worst", but in my defense, I wasn't talking about Dream Theater specifically.

But:
WDADU - The Killing Hand (#6 on the album and #150 overall)
-- I&W - Learning to Live (#5 on the album and #17 overall)
-- Awake - Scarred (#11 (Worst) on the album and #100 overall)
-- ACOS is my #103 overall song
-- FII - Trial of Tears (#3 on the album and #53 overall) <-- Almost the same as you
-- SFAM - Home (#3 on the album and #13 overall)
-- SDOIT - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (#2 on the album and #29 overall
-- TOT - In the Name of God (#2 on the album and #27 overall)
-- 8VM - Octavarium (#1 on the album and #16 overall)
-- SC - In the Presence of Enemies (#5 on the album and #118 overall)
-- BC&SL - The Count of Tuscany (#5 on the album and #79 overall)
-- ADTOE - Breaking All Illusions (#9 (worst) on the album and #117 overall)
-- DT12 - Illumination Theory (#5 on the album and #58 overall)
-- TA - A New Beginning (#3 on the album and #46 overall) <-- I think the only one that is significantly higher than you
-- DOT - At Wit's End (#5 on the album and #83 overall)
-- View - A View from the Top of the World (#2 on the album and #43 overall)

2 out of 16 as "Worst", only 1 out of 16 as "best".

[Wim Kruithof]

Well I boxed myself into a corner with "worst" or "near worst", but in my defense, I wasn't talking about Dream Theater specifically.

But:
WDADU - The Killing Hand (#6 on the album and #150 overall)
-- I&W - Learning to Live (#5 on the album and #17 overall)
-- Awake - Scarred (#11 (Worst) on the album and #100 overall)
-- ACOS is my #103 overall song
-- SC - In the Presence of Enemies (#5 on the album and #118 overall)
-- BC&SL - The Count of Tuscany (#5 on the album and #79 overall)
-- ADTOE - Breaking All Illusions (#9 (worst) on the album and #117 overall)
-- DT12 - Illumination Theory (#5 on the album and #58 overall)
-- DOT - At Wit's End (#5 on the album and #83 overall)

TAC I really respect your opinion because it's based on a very wide perspective, where mine is solely (is even a word) on Dream Theater.

But having that said, we're having a huge gap in our musical taste.

The Killing Hand, Learning to Live, Scarred and all that's mentioned above are to me the best songs on the albums by a stunning margin. Accept only Surrounded really comes close.

[TAC]

I think you meant Stadler.

[Adami]

I think you meant Stadler.

Probably. But maybe saying he respected Stadler's opinion was too hard to type.

[TAC]

Probably. But maybe saying he respected Stadler's opinion was too hard to type.

Probably found it too marginalizing.

[TheCountOfNYC]

While long doesn't always equal good, Dream Theater seem to be at their best when writing longer songs

[Adami]

I dunno. Nightmare is mostly meh. Shattered Fortress is meh. Best of Times is a mixed bag. The Count of Tuscany is meh. A Change of Seasons is top quality. 8vm is great. Breaking All Illusions is great. Illumination theory is a mixed bag. Trial of Tears is great. Learning to Live is great. Sacrificed Sons is meh. Home is very good. Ministry is meh. ITPOE is mixed bag. This Dying Soul is meh. In the Name of God is mostly good. 6DOIT is great.

So of most of their long songs. 6 are meh. 3 are a mixed bag. And 8 are good/great. By my standards.

I can't even start typing out all the midlength or short songs I love cause there's too many.

Obviously I'm not saying longer is worse. I'm saying that there doesn't seem to be anything to show that longer is better. At least by my own personal standards.

[pg1067]

I dunno. Nightmare is mostly meh. Shattered Fortress is meh. Best of Times is a mixed bag. The Count of Tuscany is meh. A Change of Seasons is top quality. 8vm is great. Breaking All Illusions is great. Illumination theory is a mixed bag. Trial of Tears is great. Learning to Live is great. Sacrificed Sons is meh. Home is very good. Ministry is meh. ITPOE is mixed bag. This Dying Soul is meh. In the Name of God is mostly good. 6DOIT is great.

So of most of their long songs. 6 are meh. 3 are a mixed bag. And 8 are good/great. By my standards.

I can't even start typing out all the midlength or short songs I love cause there's too many.

Obviously I'm not saying longer is worse. I'm saying that there doesn't seem to be anything to show that longer is better. At least by my own personal standards.

If you look at the very longest songs, they all tend to be highly rated:

- SDOIT (42:00) - #9 on the 2024 countdown and #12 on the 2021/22 countdown

- ITPOE (25:38) - #22 and #25

- 8VM (24:00) - #4 and #3

- ACOS (23:09) - #3 and #2

- Illumination Theory (22:17) - #25 and #23

- A View... - #49 (not part of the 2021/22 countdown)

 - TCOT - #10 and #14


It's when they get into that 10-16 minute range that they have a more mixed bag that includes a fair number of clunkers or songs that (arguably, of course) should be about 1/3 shorter than they are.

The other end of the spectrum is harder to evaluate since you've got all the NOMAC tracks and transitional pieces on SFAM and TA.  Two of the shortest songs that don't fall into any of those categories are Wait for Sleep and Overture 1928, both of which are pretty highly regarded.

[The Letter M]

We all know song length doesn't matter. It's all about song girth.

-Marc.

[ReaperKK]

It's about how long the song is, rather what the band is capable of doing with the song length they have...

[Jamesman42]

Longer songs by nature have more potential for more good stuff, but equally bad or mediocre/unnecessary stuff.

DT (and Neal Morse) can get the most out of the length of a song, IMO. But that doesn't mean they are perfect. ANTR is a bloated mess and TBOT is way too long, whereas TCOT and TSF pack huge punches of good music, which itself is interesting because they all come from the same album. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I agree song length is not a great predictor of how much I will like the song if I look at the aggregate of longer DT songs. However, I have feeling that the longest song will be the best on DT16 and I base that on absolutely nothing at all.

[MirrorMask]

I agree song length is not a great predictor of how much I will like the song if I look at the aggregate of longer DT songs. However, I have feeling that the longest song will be the best on DT16 and I base that on absolutely nothing at all.

We wouldn't have it any other way here at DTF     

[Stadler]

If you look at the very longest songs, they all tend to be highly rated:

- SDOIT (42:00) - #9 on the 2024 countdown and #12 on the 2021/22 countdown

- ITPOE (25:38) - #22 and #25

- 8VM (24:00) - #4 and #3

- ACOS (23:09) - #3 and #2

- Illumination Theory (22:17) - #25 and #23

- A View... - #49 (not part of the 2021/22 countdown)

 - TCOT - #10 and #14


It's when they get into that 10-16 minute range that they have a more mixed bag that includes a fair number of clunkers or songs that (arguably, of course) should be about 1/3 shorter than they are.

The other end of the spectrum is harder to evaluate since you've got all the NOMAC tracks and transitional pieces on SFAM and TA.  Two of the shortest songs that don't fall into any of those categories are Wait for Sleep and Overture 1928, both of which are pretty highly regarded.

But here's the thing...

I'm not sure that "longer songs are ranked higher" means anything because that assumes that the rankings were done in a vacuum; part of my premise is that people are inherently biased because of length. In other words, I think the high rankings say the opposite of what you're saying.  Sorry, I'm going to offend people here, but it's to make a point:  I don't get the love for A Change Of Seasons. I think it's in the same basket as "Grendel" with Marillion; I absolutely think it has it's place not because it's an awesome, standalone song, but because of the circumstances; the latter is a relatively obscure b-side that didn't get played a lot and got trotted out on "special occasions", and isn't like anything else in the Marillion catalogue.  I think ACOS's place on an EP as a sort of "special event", and the fact that it exists in certain different formats (with different keyboard players) and the lyrical content puts it in the same place.

Hey look, I'm not here to question people's opinions or motives.  I'm sure every single person that rated ACOS #2 did so because they well and truly lose themselves in the awesomeness that is that song.  And if that's the case, I couldn't be happier, because I love that we can all lose ourselves in this music.  I just have my suspicions.

[dparrott]

I think the band will release an album of total silence, and the fans will have to "imagine" the music themselves based off the tracklist. Always thinking progressively, those DT boys.

The real Dream Theater is in YOUR MIND!

Everyone gets the music they want.  I like it.   

[ZirconBlue]

Hey look, I'm not here to question people's opinions or motives.  I'm sure every single person that rated ACOS #2 did so because they well and truly lose themselves in the awesomeness that is that song.  And if that's the case, I couldn't be happier, because I love that we can all lose ourselves in this music.  I just have my suspicions.

ACoS is not only my favorite DT song, it's my favorite song by anyone.

[hefdaddy42]

But without being argumentative

LOL 

[pg1067]

But here's the thing...

I'm not sure that "longer songs are ranked higher" means anything because that assumes that the rankings were done in a vacuum; part of my premise is that people are inherently biased because of length. In other words, I think the high rankings say the opposite of what you're saying.

I'm not quite sure what you think I'm saying beyond the fact that 6 of the 7 longest songs in the catalog ranked in the top 25 in both countdowns.  One can reasonably conclude further that those songs are popular with the folks at DTF (and I don't think there's a big disconnect between everyone here and the subset who participated in the countdowns).

As far as what you're saying, I agree that there is bias in favor of the concept of longer songs and that such bias is unwarranted if the only information known is the length of the song.  I don't really recall the buzz preceding the release of Octavarium (the album).  I strongly suspect that I knew nothing about the album until I had it in my hands, but I assume that it was announced ahead of time that the title track was 24 minutes.  I also assume that people got excited about that fact.  However, if you're saying (and I'm not sure you are) that people are still biased toward liking the song because of its length (i.e., they're ranking the songs high BECAUSE they're long), I'm highly skeptical of that.  Once you've actually heard a song, it can be evaluated on its merits above and beyond its length.

[Wim Kruithof]

I think you meant Stadler.

Sorry mate, of course I did. My bad.

[Samsara]

With James HAVING FINISHED vocals, I'm really curious (like everyone) to see where he is at. We know what will be brought to the table musically. The Wild Card is always the Pirate. I am going to ASSume whatever he recorded will be something he will be able to comfortably sing live. But, has he taken stock of how he's sounded on recent tours and did something to address that before recording vocals for this album? Or is he just singing the songs, and will figure out what to do with them live for consistency later?

I'm excited for DT's new release. They all want it to be great with MP back in the band. But the tunes also need to be pulled off live, and JLB has to be comfortable. It just makes me wonder if he's dialed it down in the studio, so that he can sing them with more consistency than the last couple of tours.

[brakkum]

With James finishing vocals, I'm really curious (like everyone) to see where he is at.

Vocals have been done for over a month! (as far as we can tell)

[Progmaniac1988]

Vocals are definitely done, I just read a JR interview where he said all recordings are done. The album is in the post production state.