Now that the MM era is finished, how would you rank those five albums?

[Skeever]

No reason to be combative, friend. Hef is all of our father, he's great, we love him.

Hef is the All-Father

[CraftyCaleb2483]

No reason to be combative, friend. Hef is all of our father, he's great, we love him.

And remember, we must honor thy father

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Nah that's alright, I'm able to understand my position even if you're not able to!

lol I am not sure if you are trolling or not but I'll play along.

I think I understand your position. You have a certain connection to MP and when he was no longer in the band the end product was just totally different to you. Packaging DT as DT without MP does not compute. I hear you.

Now, as to why you think the allegedly terrible output of 2013-2021 are Mangini's fault I am not sure. As was stated by someone else, the primary songwriters in this band are JP and JR. It was that way when Portnoy was in the band as well. I am also not sure why you think Mangini's playing is 'passionless' although it sounds an awful lot like a bias that non-DT fans have against all of the bandmembers.

I am going to assume you think positively of John Petrucci because it is hard to imagine anyone liking ANY period of the band and not liking his guitar playing. Think about how unfair the following is: someone who idolizes the guitarists of the 60s and 70s hears JP and immediately says it's off-putting because there is no feel, no emotion, no passion. There is just mindless shredding and techniques. I can't tell you how many times I have come across this view. Putting aside that it appears to reflect a very narrow vision of what good musicianship is, how do these people know what passion he is or is not putting into his playing? They don't. It's one thing not to like something or not to understand it and have no interest in pursuing it. It's another thing to do what I just mentioned AND say this musician doesn't put passion into his playing or his output lacks emotion. I am going off on this tangent to try to say that if you've ever come across this bias in others maybe it will help you recognize it in yourself.

Conceptually there is a way to pick apart musical differences between the two eras or to say how the drums changed the sound of each era. I am not really seeing that in your posts, though. All I am reading is 'this entire period of music is terrible and it is Mangini's fault unless DT16 sucks. His playing is passionless.'

[hefdaddy42]

Hef is the All-Father

Technically, Odin is the All-Father.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

lol I am not sure if you are trolling or not but I'll play along.

I think I understand your position. You have a certain connection to MP and when he was no longer in the band the end product was just totally different to you. Packaging DT as DT without MP does not compute. I hear you.

Now, as to why you think the allegedly terrible output of 2013-2021 are Mangini's fault I am not sure. As was stated by someone else, the primary songwriters in this band are JP and JR. It was that way when Portnoy was in the band as well. I am also not sure why you think Mangini's playing is 'passionless' although it sounds an awful lot like a bias that non-DT fans have against all of the bandmembers.

I am going to assume you think positively of John Petrucci because it is hard to imagine anyone liking ANY period of the band and not liking his guitar playing. Think about how unfair the following is: someone who idolizes the guitarists of the 60s and 70s hears JP and immediately says it's off-putting because there is no feel, no emotion, no passion. There is just mindless shredding and techniques. I can't tell you how many times I have come across this view. Putting aside that it appears to reflect a very narrow vision of what good musicianship is, how do these people know what passion he is or is not putting into his playing? They don't. It's one thing not to like something or not to understand it and have no interest in pursuing it. It's another thing to do what I just mentioned AND say this musician doesn't put passion into his playing or his output lacks emotion. I am going off on this tangent to try to say that if you've ever come across this bias in others maybe it will help you recognize it in yourself.

Conceptually there is a way to pick apart musical differences between the two eras or to say how the drums changed the sound of each era. I am not really seeing that in your posts, though. All I am reading is 'this entire period of music is terrible and it is Mangini's fault unless DT16 sucks. His playing is passionless.'

The Barstool Warrior, Ladies and Gentlemen, talking to his gin

great post 

[Dream Team]

DT05, please elaborate on what is wrong with the songs since 2011 that would be fixed with a different drummer. I don't agree but am interested in your opinion.

[Trav]

DT05, please elaborate on what is wrong with the songs since 2011 that would be fixed with a different drummer. I don't agree but am interested in your opinion.

Not to speak for other people, but from a lot of fans ears (and from Jordan's mouth in a recent interview) there is a lot more that Mike Portnoy brings to the table than his drumming.

[MetropolisWatches]

I've really enjoyed every album of the MM era. Thus, they are difficult to rank.

A Dramatic Turn of Events: Loved it when originally released, and still do today. This release was a huge breath of fresh air after BC&SL (one of my least favorite DT albums -- where I feel Portnoy's heavy influence had reached its limits) and clearly the band getting back to some of the best elements of their sound. 'Breaking All Illusions' is an all-time DT classic, and stands up to their best stuff.

DT: Not a fan of the album's production (namely the artificial drum sound), but this contains some excellent material. 'The Bigger Picture' and 'Surrender to Reason' are some of the absolute best (and underrated) songs of the MM era.

The Astonishing: Easily the most polarizing album they released with MM. I appear to be in the minority who loved it back in 2016... and its overall reception doesn't appear to have changed much 8 years later. It contains some fantastic songs and powerful motifs/melodies (it's truly some of the bands most emotional, dramatic music-- in their entire catalogue) -- but was ultimately let down by a lame story (along with some weak lyrics) and an overly long run-time. If it had been condensed (or even boiled down to a single disc), I'm convinced this album would have received universal praise.
I haven't listened to the album in a number of years and decided to throw on 'Dystopian Overture' -- it still gives me chills. For better or worse, this album remains the most bold and courageous artistic statement of the Mangini era.

Distance Over Time: A welcomed, stripped-down approach following TA. The whole album is great, but I often find myself skipping "Out of Reach" (sometimes, I even forget this song exists ) 'Barstool Warrior' is still my absolute favorite track from this album.

A View From The Top of The World: Obviously the latest release, and admittedly-- the album I've listened to the least of the MM era. 'Invisible Monster' is a good example of the band writing a more commercially viable song, and I really enjoy the first few tracks -- the rest of the album feels middle of the road. Will likely evolve with more listens. Dream Theater have never released a bad album -- but this installment currently leaves me feeling sort of apathetic.


My overall ranking

The GOAT:
A Dramatic Turn of Events
------
In terms of ranking, these 3 are largely interchangable:
Distance Over Time
The Astonishing
DT
------
A View From The Top of The World

[hunnus2000]

I think that the MM era's music was more assessable to the common listener than the MP era. Take the Shattered Fortress for example, I love it and can easily hear the other songs in the suite being integrated but that's because I am a fan of the music of the band. I played My Last Farewell to a friend girl and she really liked it. If I gave her something like Constant Motion, she would have turned it off.

[crystalstars17]

I think that the MM era's music was more assessable to the common listener than the MP era. Take the Shattered Fortress for example, I love it and can easily hear the other songs in the suite being integrated but that's because I am a fan of the music of the band. I played My Last Farewell to a friend girl and she really liked it. If I gave her something like Constant Motion, she would have turned it off.

I'm not exactly sure that I agree with this. What if you had played I Walk Beside You and Awaken the Master? The tables may very well have been turned.

I think it depends on the individual song AND the individual (preferences of the) listener, not the era the song is from.

[naimad]

I think that the MM era's music was more assessable to the common listener than the MP era. Take the Shattered Fortress for example, I love it and can easily hear the other songs in the suite being integrated but that's because I am a fan of the music of the band. I played My Last Farewell to a friend girl and she really liked it. If I gave her something like Constant Motion, she would have turned it off.

I don't necessarily agree with this, but thinking about it, if ADTOE and DT12 have a strong point, it's their catchy choruses.

[DT05]

From a lot of fans ears (and from Jordan's mouth in a recent interview) there is a lot more that Mike Portnoy brings to the table than his drumming.

It's this. Portnoy's presence wasn't just in his drumming. the way he ran the band and the chemistry they had as a band is not the same with Mangini. Petrucci in particular got less creative without Portnoy at his side, and it showed perpetually with the five worst albums they've ever done. The Mangini era actually helped me appreciate WDADU and FII more finally. Five people in a band, you remove one and replace a member, it's a different band because the chemistry has been altered. Moore days to Rudess days was an upgrade because Rudess brought so much more to the table than his keys, and Portnoy brought far more to the table than Mangini ever did or seemingly could. I was one who would've picked Peter Wildoer or Marco Minnemann

[CraftyCaleb2483]

I don't necessarily agree with this, but thinking about it, if ADTOE and DT12 have a strong point, it's their catchy choruses.

Yep! Most of the songs discussed in the catchy choruses thread were from those two albums!

[hunnus2000]

Yep! Most of the songs discussed in the catchy choruses thread were from those two albums!

Well so does TA but most people on this board dismiss that album. Also, DoT has some wonderful choruses. I don't think the MP era choruses was not good by any stretch, I just think there are more of those moments in the MM era. That's just me though.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It's this. Portnoy's presence wasn't just in his drumming. the way he ran the band and the chemistry they had as a band is not the same with Mangini. Petrucci in particular got less creative without Portnoy at his side, and it showed perpetually with the five worst albums they've ever done. The Mangini era actually helped me appreciate WDADU and FII more finally. Five people in a band, you remove one and replace a member, it's a different band because the chemistry has been altered. Moore days to Rudess days was an upgrade because Rudess brought so much more to the table than his keys, and Portnoy brought far more to the table than Mangini ever did or seemingly could. I was one who would've picked Peter Wildoer or Marco Minnemann

Do you have any musical examples of this?

I find this statement extremely silly when he architected the Astonishing, which was a huge creative effort. I don't even like that album but saying Petrucci got less creative with Portnoy is baseless he his role in the sausage making actually expanded over the last 13 years.

[Trav]

I would say The Astonishing is complex, but not creative. Story-wise it isn't all that original either. It's Rush's 2112 with a little Luke Skywalker thrown in. It's a massive feat, yes. But I wouldn't call it a creative high point.

[DT05]

Do you have any musical examples of this?

I find this statement extremely silly when he architected the Astonishing, which was a huge creative effort. I don't even like that album but saying Petrucci got less creative with Portnoy is baseless he his role in the sausage making actually expanded over the last 13 years.

yes thank you Trav86, complexity isn't creativity. Just because somebody wrote a lot doesn't mean what they wrote is creative. The story was absolutely horrible, the character names were like something an eighth grader would write. My musical examples were in my first post describing how each album hasn't worked out in comparison to the ten before it, but, something tells me if I pick apart those five awful albums and talk about what songs don't work in each song, you'll just want to argue from your taste. At least I entered the thread to give my opinion; I think it's funny just how unstable several reactions to someone not liking the Mangini era is. Not every fan of this band has to like every album, song, or member that came through.

[crystalstars17]

those five awful albums

🙄

So with due respect to your taste, why must you berate the preferences of others?

There is nothing inherently wrong with "those five albums" other than, apparently, you don't like them because they didn't have MP.

I admit I am one of the biggest proponents here of the MM era, but even I like some of the MP albums (Octavarium, BCSL and I&W are favorites) even though I'm not always exactly a fan of everything Portnoy brings to the table.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

those five awful albums

Your mind can sometimes decide for you on certain things. For example, if you were told that those five albums had MP in them, no matter if the music was exactly the same, then you might even like them. Now, I'm not saying this because I know exactly how that works, for all I know you might actually just dislike the music, but I'm making a point that you could be missing out on some good stuff because of that mentality!
I respect your opinion, so please just take this as advice rather than criticism!

[macneil]

My opinion on the Mangini-era is that while they might not all be my absolute favourite albums in the context of the whole discography, there's still some amazing music on there and consider them to be just as "canon" as any other album, and I hope they don't get ignored in future. But also obviously very excited to see where they go in this new era.

My #1 and #2 can swap depending how I feel on a particular day, but this is how I feel right now:

• Distance Over Time: A breath of fresh air after The Astonishing - the cut-back approach really worked here. Every song stands on it's own as good to great, and I can listen to it start-to-finish through without feeling the need to skip anything. Favourites are: Untethered Angel, Paralyzed, S2N, At Wit's End, Out of Reach, Pale Blue Dot.
• A Dramatic Turn of Events: I think this album has higher highs than DOT, but isn't quite as consistent. Never been a fan of BMU, and Lost Not Forgotten is just okay. Breaking All Illusions is a top-3 DT song of all time though, and there are handful of other fantastic songs on here like Backs of Angels, Bridges in the Sky and Outcry. Only negative is I wish the mix was a little better.
• Dream Theater: This one is nostalgic for me, as it was the first new release I experienced after becoming a big fan of the band (technically ADTOE came out after I first heard them, but I wasn't as familiar at that point). I think most of the songs are all really solid, and enjoy a lot of the vocal melodies. I really like Enemy Inside, The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture and Illumination Theory. Does have one of the most forgettable instrumentals though, and as whole the album doesn't stand out in any particular area compared to others. John Myung is more audible in the mix than usual though, which is always appreciated.
• A View From the Top of the World: A pretty solid album, but also one of the most by-the-numbers albums. None of the songs are bad, and there are some cool moments, but once it's stopped playing I forget most of it pretty quickly. The title track is great, but feel like it sort of trails off in the last third, rather than ending strong.
• The Astonishing: I've really tried, but still the only real dud in their discography for me. They obviously put a lot of effort in, there are some good moments and has standout performances in particular from James and Jordan, but it simply is too long and doesn't have enough interesting ideas to justify the length. I pretty much never listen to it - the might be a good album hidden here had they cut it in half and spent a bit more time in the oven developing the really good stuff.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I would say The Astonishing is complex, but not creative. Story-wise it isn't all that original either. It's Rush's 2112 with a little Luke Skywalker thrown in. It's a massive feat, yes. But I wouldn't call it a creative high point.

Are you willing to say the same about Scenes given its based on a pre-existing story?

[Trav]

Are you willing to say the same about Scenes given its based on a pre-existing story?

Yes

But the songs are better. And it isn't 2.5 hours long.  The majority of the songs on TA are hinging in the story. It's a rock opera where it's all about carrying the story along. SFAM is more of a concept album than a rock opera. And there is a difference. The music was all written before they even came up with the story (or ripped it off) and the lyrics. There are people who gush over it, and don't entirely know what the story is.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

There are people who gush over it, and don't entirely know what the story is.

Yep, or not really care about the story and just like it because of the exceptional music, which is where I sit

[crystalstars17]

The music was all written before they even came up with the story (or ripped it off) and the lyrics. There are people who gush over it, and don't entirely know what the story is.

If you're referring to TA, the strong point isn't in fact the story, it's the music.

And the performance by James is a masterpiece. His voice was born for music like that - soaring lines, with plenty of dynamic variety and emotionally complex.

[Trav]

If you're referring to TA, the strong point isn't in fact the story, it's the music.

And the performance by James is a masterpiece. His voice was born for music like that - soaring lines, with plenty of dynamic variety and emotionally complex.

I was referring to SFAM. The story and music of TA were written together.

I agree James is tremendous on it as well as what you said about the complexity of it. I'm glad you like it, and I respect the hell out of John for the work he put into it. But even then, overall, I still think it was more of a failure than a success.

[Dream Team]

yes thank you Trav86, complexity isn't creativity. Just because somebody wrote a lot doesn't mean what they wrote is creative. The story was absolutely horrible, the character names were like something an eighth grader would write. My musical examples were in my first post describing how each album hasn't worked out in comparison to the ten before it, but, something tells me if I pick apart those five awful albums and talk about what songs don't work in each song, you'll just want to argue from your taste. At least I entered the thread to give my opinion; I think it's funny just how unstable several reactions to someone not liking the Mangini era is. Not every fan of this band has to like every album, song, or member that came through.

Right. Well I have a very difficult time seeing any major flaws in songs like Breaking All Illusions and Outcry for just 2 examples; just great flow, melody, and playing. What did MM do to ruin songs like Beneath the Surface, This Is the Life, or Our New World? I guess I'll never be able to comprehend such a rigid viewpoint that "everything is extremely bad on the those albums" - that's a completely over-the-top fanatical take, and really can't be supported by any rational critique. It's basically the equivalent of saying all 10 albums with Portnoy were terrible.

[Setlist Scotty]

The story and music of TA were written together.

You sure about that? Even though the lyrics may not have been completely written first, I think the story was largely fleshed out before the music was written, and then JP and JR would decide what would be most appropriate musically for a given "chapter".

[Max Kuehnau]

yes this is what John said at the time (I'm quite sure anyway)

[Ben_Jamin]

You sure about that? Even though the lyrics may not have been completely written first, I think the story was largely fleshed out before the music was written, and then JP and JR would decide what would be most appropriate musically for a given "chapter".

JP and JR had musical themes for certain characters that appear throughout the entire album, these themes would also be done in different ways.

Hearing those themes is a reason I enjoy the album a lot.

[Trav]

You sure about that? Even though the lyrics may not have been completely written first, I think the story was largely fleshed out before the music was written, and then JP and JR would decide what would be most appropriate musically for a given "chapter".

Either way. I was just contrasting it with SFAM where the music was all written first.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Petrucci in particular got less creative without Portnoy at his side

To be honest, I sort of agree with you, I just remembered a post I read somewhere (or video that I watched) that said that during the song-writing process, MM would come up with a rhythm on his drums, and then JP would copy that exact same rhythm with a single chuggy power chord, and that riff (if you can even call it that) would be used as a verse riff, like in ATC, Untethered Angel, The Alien, for a few examples. Now, I hate the unoriginality of these riffs, and so agree with your statement. I'd much prefer for him to think up more creative verse riffs, such as in Fatal Tragedy, ITPOE2 2nd verse of Heretic, As I Am, for a few examples

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

To be honest, I sort of agree with you, I just remembered a post I read somewhere (or video that I watched) that said that during the song-writing process, MM would come up with a rhythm on his drums, and then JP would copy that exact same rhythm with a single chuggy power chord, and that riff (if you can even call it that) would be used as a verse riff, like in ATC, Untethered Angel, The Alien, for a few examples. Now, I hate the unoriginality of these riffs, and so agree with your statement. I'd much prefer for him to think up more creative verse riffs, such as in Fatal Tragedy, ITPOE2 2nd verse of Heretic, As I Am, for a few examples

I don't know this is how the songwriting process went down in general. I think for some songs Mangini brought a rhythm or pattern to the table and that was the seed for the song. But I am not sure that everywhere Petrucci played a simplistic chug it was because he was just relying on Mangini to carry the song or because Portnoy was not there.

The chugs are just an integral part of Metal music. They've always been there (This Dying Soul but I could name a lot more) and they will be there on DT16.

I *really* don't think Petrucci's guitar playing has anything to do with whether Portnoy is there to give him inspiration. Even if we all concede 2019-2021 JP is less creative (we'd probably have to agree on a definition of creative first) than say 2007-2009 JP, I don't see why it follows this is primarily because of Mike Portnoy rather than John Petrucci and the changes that happen in a person/musician in his late 50s vs. his 40s.

[Dream Team]

The idea that MP "inspires" JP to be creative is very amusing. One of those classic retroactive theories shoehorned in to a perceived truth that is mostly fallacy. JP brought a very wide variety of sounds, riffs, and solos on the 5 MM albums and none of the 5 sound alike. But why is this only applicable to JP? The other 3 aren't driven to be "less creative"?

[Stadler]

I don't necessarily agree with this, but thinking about it, if ADTOE and DT12 have a strong point, it's their catchy choruses.

See, I disagree with this and the original statement.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't think there's a HUGE disconnect between the two eras in terms of "accessability"; as long as James is singing, there's a certain level of accessibility built in.  But one of my beefs with the MM era  - and I don't think it's attributable TO MM, but maybe it's a part of the effects of "no MP" - is that the choruses AREN'T there.  I didn't respond to the other thread about melodies, but I'm a melody guy.  I like my music heavy, but the beauty of Dream Theater for me was that they were "Iron Maiden with Steve Perry singing", more or less.  That's been missing, IMO in recent years.

I totally understand that this is personal taste, and I am a visceral listener; it either strikes me or not, and with very very few exceptions (that patently do not seem to work!) I don't "force" myself to like anything.  When I did my DT Top songs, I rated EVERY song from start to finish.  Out of the top 25?  Two MM era songs.  Two: "This Is The Life" (No. 5) and "Along For The Ride" (No. 12).  Bridges In The Sky was 26, and Transcending Time was 33.  When you look down my top 10, it's chock fill of melodies that I find myself singing even if I'm not actively listening to the band. Voices.  Strange Deja Vu.  Misunderstood.  Home.  I Walk Beside You (I'm not suggesting anyone should agree with these songs, I'm just providing examples of what I find to be strong melodies/choruses).

[Stadler]

The idea that MP "inspires" JP to be creative is very amusing. One of those classic retroactive theories shoehorned in to a perceived truth that is mostly fallacy. JP brought a very wide variety of sounds, riffs, and solos on the 5 MM albums and none of the 5 sound alike. But why is this only applicable to JP? The other 3 aren't driven to be "less creative"?

As someone who has danced down that path, I don't think that's a fair summarization of anything I'VE said.  I don't know that it's directly that MP "inspires" John to "be creative".  John is a creative guy on his own, for sure.  But Dream Theater has always been a whole that is more than the sum of its parts for me; some of those songs were great SONGS, and oh-by-the-way, you can dig into the individual parts and find all kinds of good things individually and instrumentally.  But at the end of the day, they were great SONGS.  IMO.  I think that with MP there is more horsepower, more options.  Look, DT is not the first band where an individual member is supremely talented but is elevated by those around him/her.  I've always been a proponent of the "clubhouse" idea; Mick Jagger has written many Stones songs himself, and he doesn't forget how to write or sing when Keef isn't there, but I think we can all agree that his solo output doesn't measure up to the Stones material.  Jimmy Page is another one.

We're talking about art here, not chemistry, where you can break down a reaction to molecules and do math on it.  I just think the atmosphere with all five of those in the room - and the key elements are John and Mike - has an intangible that isn't there otherwise.  And yes, it may well be "in my head", but I offer, so what?  It's art, it's about pleasure and release and enjoyment.  Why does it matter - other than curiosity - to anyone else what music "thrills" me or why?