Now that the MM era is finished, how would you rank those five albums?

[Trav]

After getting the HD version of ADToE and listening to it solely on my headphones, it has become one of the 3 biggest one-eighty degree about faces in my life. Just an amazingly brilliant album that I was never able to appreciate by owning the CD. At this point in time it's on almost daily rotation and I think it is a top 3 or 4 album.

I agree and for me I can say the same for the self-titled. It made a huge difference for me.

[Dream Team]

I wish I had the technical know-how to get that HD version.

[Zydar]

You can buy the hi-res files here. 

Dream Theater (hdtracks.com)

[Dream Team]

Thanks!

[Setlist Scotty]

your inclusion of TV is completely without merit since MP had *zero* influence on the writing of that album as Stads pointed out. That was all JP.

Then doesn't this prove, if anything, that JP does perfectly well all by himself?

Actually no - not in the setting of writing together and developing new ideas during the sessions themselves, which is what we're talking about. Sure JP and any band member can have a catalog of ideas from which to draw from when writing new songs that may be good, but that was not traditionally the way things were done during MP's first stint with the band (with some exceptions) and apparently wasn't the case with AVFtTotW either. So that's why it's good MP is there to help coax ideas out of the others, especially since he has the tendency to be an architect looking at the bigger picture (whether of a song or full album), something that I don't believe MM did.
 
 

I understand that people are passionate about those they admire (or we all wouldn't be here, right?), but it looks from the outside as if the MP-contingent puts him on some kind of pedestal that's almost too larger-than-life, to the point where he can do no wrong and is gonna save the DT world (have a little more hyperbole!    lol - even the great authors used it because sometimes, it just works, especially when describing behaviors that are in themselves hyperbolic). It's a really weird phenomenon from the outside and I haven't even been in these spaces very long and yet it's very easy to see.

I don't know if I am one of the individuals to which you are referring to - I'm sure KevShmev thinks I am - but for the record, I'm not. And I think that the majority of fans that are happy to see MP return are like myself. Yes, there are a certain faction that were of the "it's not DT without MP" mentality, some of whom are friends of mine elsewhere, but there are plenty of us who have continued with the band regardless and have enjoyed the MM-era albums to varying degrees. Nonetheless, we are happy for MP's return.

Put it this way: imagine it was JL that left for 13 years instead of MP. And then imagine JL returning. I'm sure you'd be just as excited if not more than most of us who are happy that MP has returned. Why? Because JL is the voice you're attached to in the band; the same is true for us old school fans in how we view MP's role within the band.

[crystalstars17]

Actually no - not in the setting of writing together and developing new ideas during the sessions themselves, which is what we're talking about. Sure JP and any band member can have a catalog of ideas from which to draw from when writing new songs that may be good, but that was not traditionally the way things were done during MP's first stint with the band (with some exceptions) and apparently wasn't the case with AVFtTotW either. So that's why it's good MP is there to help coax ideas out of the others, especially since he has the tendency to be an architect looking at the bigger picture (whether of a song or full album), something that I don't believe MM did.

If even Jordan Rudess said they did "just fine" without it, then I believe they would've remained just fine, with or without MP.

But I wasn't there, I know nothing, and I don't have it in me to argue. You like what you like and so do I. And while I hate to think that the fandom will be divided, maybe like it or not this is just the new normal so to speak, the way the fandom will be from now on.

I don't know if I am one of the individuals to which you are referring to - I'm sure KevShmev thinks I am - but for the record, I'm not. And I think that the majority of fans that are happy to see MP return are like myself. Yes, there are a certain faction that were of the "it's not DT without MP" mentality, some of whom are friends of mine elsewhere, but there are plenty of us who have continued with the band regardless and have enjoyed the MM-era albums to varying degrees. Nonetheless, we are happy for MP's return.

No, I don't think you're one of them. I have yet to see anything quite that extreme around here.

Put it this way: imagine it was JL that left for 13 years instead of MP. And then imagine JL returning. I'm sure you'd be just as excited if not more than most of us who are happy that MP has returned. Why? Because JL is the voice you're attached to in the band; the same is true for us old school fans in how we view MP's role within the band.

You make a compelling point, but ok pretend it was James who left and came back. And that I was there years ago and that you became a fan while the new singer was there, and the music the band made during that era was some of the best music you had ever heard, even music you associated with certain milestones in your life. And then along comes James, crashing back into your version of DT, with the ability to shake certain things up (we'll imagine for this that he can take control of setlists, and control some of the songwriting and other aesthetic decisions) so as to almost be, almost, run like a different band from the one you have come to love. I wouldn't expect us to see eye to eye in that alternate version of reality, either.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It is difficult to understand how much MM was incorporated into the song writing on the last two albums because the band didn't put out a lot of making-of footage. It was more than before which we can deduce because of things Mike has said in interviews. He could have had provided a lot of feedback and ideas and there is just no way for us to know how many were his ideas. I think he said he wrote all of the parts on his new solo album so clearly he is more than capable of coming up with complete sections and seeing the bigger picture of a song.

We do know that in DT he brought in patterns/ideas/rhythms that became the root of at least some songs including - but maybe not limited to - the Alien and Pale Blue Dot. In these cases his songwriting contributions are some of the clearest we have. Let's put I&W aside for a moment. I would be curious to know which pre-MM songs rest of the foundation of rhythmic ideas that MP brought in.

Away from that I would wager nearly all of the drum orchestration was Mangini's including most of ADTOE. Which drums specifically to hit, in which order, and when. That is a critical drumming function. His approach to that was pretty consistent from ADTOE to View - drum nerds please opine with your expertise - and it is pretty different from MP's.

I've said it before but I understand the MP song writing dynamic is different because a number of factors (though I don't accept one of them is that MM cannot do this - not accusing anyone of making that claim except the newly joined member who thinks all of the last 5 albums were garbage and that it is all Mangini's fault). But beyond a small sample it is tough to compare apples to apples much besides the drumming we hear on the albums.

The other thing I wonder about is that I notice a lot of fans don't seem to regard the last 3 MP era albums in overly high regard. It's pretty normal to see some of those albums come in at the bottom of fan rankings. So what I wonder is, if the MP songwriting dynamic and coaxing and coddling gave us 3 consecutive albums with questionable standing, why is this regarded has a hands down positive catalyst to the band's creative engine?

For the record I personally do not blame him or give him over the top credit for the good/bad of the last 3 he did.

[crystalstars17]

not accusing anyone of making that claim except the newly joined member who thinks all of the last 5 albums were garbage and that it is all Mangini's fault

Oh yeah, haha so there is ONE such extremist here. How quickly I forget! 🤣

The other thing I wonder about is that I notice a lot of fans don't seem to regard the last 3 MP era albums in overly high regard. It's pretty normal to see some of those albums come in at the bottom of fan rankings. So what I wonder is, if the MP songwriting dynamic and coaxing and coddling gave us 3 consecutive albums with questionable standing, why is this regarded has a hands down positive catalyst to the band's creative engine?

Good question!

Excellent post, btw. Bravo 👏👏👏

[TheOutlawXanadu]

One aspect where Portnoy helped a lot in the past is in terms of establishing a concept or overarching theme for each record. When I think of albums like Train of Thought or Octavarium, those records have very strong identities. I think their albums have maybe lost that a little bit over time, starting with Systematic Chaos (when Portnoy was obviously still in the band). The glaring exception is The Astonishing, IMO.

So with regards to the next album, I do wonder if Portnoy will bring a cool concept to the table.

[Stadler]

It is difficult to understand how much MM was incorporated into the song writing on the last two albums because the band didn't put out a lot of making-of footage. It was more than before which we can deduce because of things Mike has said in interviews. He could have had provided a lot of feedback and ideas and there is just no way for us to know how many were his ideas. I think he said he wrote all of the parts on his new solo album so clearly he is more than capable of coming up with complete sections and seeing the bigger picture of a song.

We do know that in DT he brought in patterns/ideas/rhythms that became the root of at least some songs including - but maybe not limited to - the Alien and Pale Blue Dot. In these cases his songwriting contributions are some of the clearest we have. Let's put I&W aside for a moment. I would be curious to know which pre-MM songs rest of the foundation of rhythmic ideas that MP brought in.

Away from that I would wager nearly all of the drum orchestration was Mangini's including most of ADTOE. Which drums specifically to hit, in which order, and when. That is a critical drumming function. His approach to that was pretty consistent from ADTOE to View - drum nerds please opine with your expertise - and it is pretty different from MP's.

I've said it before but I understand the MP song writing dynamic is different because a number of factors (though I don't accept one of them is that MM cannot do this - not accusing anyone of making that claim except the newly joined member who thinks all of the last 5 albums were garbage and that it is all Mangini's fault). But beyond a small sample it is tough to compare apples to apples much besides the drumming we hear on the albums.

The other thing I wonder about is that I notice a lot of fans don't seem to regard the last 3 MP era albums in overly high regard. It's pretty normal to see some of those albums come in at the bottom of fan rankings. So what I wonder is, if the MP songwriting dynamic and coaxing and coddling gave us 3 consecutive albums with questionable standing, why is this regarded has a hands down positive catalyst to the band's creative engine?

For the record I personally do not blame him or give him over the top credit for the good/bad of the last 3 he did.

I don't know you, and I don't know your experience.  I can share mine, but even that's difficult because you weren't there to see it.

I played sports all the way up into college, and then played softball and hockey up to a few years ago.   I've worked at several jobs, from janitor in a public school system to Counsel of a division of General Electric.  I've played in bands from high school up until a couple years ago in Philly, I was a Mummer.  I've been married twice and have four kids (one from my first marriage and three I "inherited" in my second.

The dynamics of the personal relationships of all those situations are radically different.  Some, my softball team in college, the team I led when I was PM in the environmental industry, I was the lead guy.  Others, the Mums, or janitor, I was a soldier, yes, sir, may I have another.  Still others, I was a sort of sole practitioner, given a task and told to bring it home.  Even the same scenarios - softball team for instance - is different every time.

I don't quite follow - and I respectfully put it down to age/experience, and that's not a disrespectful thing to say it's just a fact - how people don't quite follow that it's not the same as plugging and playing the guy that cuts your lawn. Crystal, let's say we get to meet at the next DT show; are you going to react to me - a male at a concert of a band you love - the same way you react to your husband - also, presumably, a male at a concert of a band you love?  I don't say this to make any points about MP or MM, but rather as someone with some experience with teams and relationship building, but I'd encourage several of you to contemplate YOUR behavior with the various team groups in your life.  Are you EXACTLY the same - and by that I mean, do you play the exact same role and does everyone react to you in exactly the same way - in your work friend group as you do your, say, school friend group?  Are you always the most dominant player?  Do you always have the same hierarchy of people around you?

I think if you're being honest, the answer is no, even if the differences are subtle.   Some of us went through this already with other bands (I keep using Kiss, because it's so spot on; Deep Purple might be another).  I think unless MP and MM are exactly the same in every way in that situation, and we know they are not, AND the reaction by the rest of the band and crew to MP and MM are exactly the same by the others in the room, and we know they are not, it can't HELP but be different.   How different, we don't know (yet), and different for the better or worse we don't know (yet) but by definition it HAS to be different. 

I am one of those people; I noticed differences, for better or worse over the last five albums as compared to the five albums that came before.  I generally prefer the ones that came before. I didn't plan it that way, I didn't do that consciously; I like what I like and it's not something I spend too much time thinking about.

[hefdaddy42]

And while I hate to think that the fandom will be divided, maybe like it or not this is just the new normal so to speak, the way the fandom will be from now on.

To be fair, the fandom has been divided for the last 13 years.  In fact, it's been divided in some ways since Kevin Moore left the band.

The DT fandom wouldn't know what to do with itself if it weren't divided.  And I suspect that there is an element of that with the fandom of almost any band that has enjoyed any level of success and longevity, in some form or fashion.  That's human nature, and fandom nature.

[Trav]

In other words, different people
Have different opinions. Shit's crazy.

[gborland]

In other words, different people
Have different opinions. Shit's crazy.

And some people's opinions are actually wrong. I mean, WTF. 

[Stadler]

To be fair, the fandom has been divided for the last 13 years.  In fact, it's been divided in some ways since Kevin Moore left the band.

The DT fandom wouldn't know what to do with itself if it weren't divided.  And I suspect that there is an element of that with the fandom of almost any band that has enjoyed any level of success and longevity, in some form or fashion.  That's human nature, and fandom nature.

This.  There are kiss fans that swear the band died in 1980 when they stopped playing as the original four, and that the current band with Eric and Tommy is a "cover band" despite having two original members.   Personally, I saw the last tour with Peter and Ace (after the reunion) and THANK GOD for Eric and Tommy.  Peter BLOWS at this point.  It's embarrassing.  But... tastes. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Room 137 is basically Manginis song. Didn't he also come up with the lyric rhythm pattern to play along with the drumming rhythm?

Found a video of JP and Mangini discussing this song in a track by track video....

[CraftyCaleb2483]

not accusing anyone of making that claim except the newly joined member who thinks all of the last 5 albums were garbage and that it is all Mangini's fault

  Well said! (On all of that post but particularly that bit!)

[gzarruk]

We do know that in DT he brought in patterns/ideas/rhythms that became the root of at least some songs including - but maybe not limited to - The Alien and Pale Blue Dot.

Room 137 is basically Manginis song. Didn't he also come up with the lyric rhythm pattern to play along with the drumming rhythm?

Yes, all of these mentioned as well as Paralyzed (he brought in the intro riff which JP tweaked a bit), the main rhythm motif for A View (the song), the "groovy" riff from Illumination Theory that comes after the orchestral section as well as the basic idea for the live/die/kill lyric. I'm sure there are others but I just haven't seen them mentioned on interviews or stuff like that.

He also asked/pushed for the band to use Myung's bass riff which ended up being the base for S2N (apparently JM brought in that riff but every time they started jamming on it, they went on a different direction and it was discarded 2 or 3 times before MM insisted on using it), as well as insisting on the band working on a mid-tempo song which he felt was missing from the AVFTTOTW sessions (and that's when JP started working on what became Invisible Monster).

All this comes from interviews through the years as well as the A View documentary, if I'm not mistaken.

[crystalstars17]

I don't quite follow - and I respectfully put it down to age/experience, and that's not a disrespectful thing to say it's just a fact - how people don't quite follow that it's not the same as plugging and playing the guy that cuts your lawn. Crystal, let's say we get to meet at the next DT show; are you going to react to me - a male at a concert of a band you love - the same way you react to your husband - also, presumably, a male at a concert of a band you love?  I don't say this to make any points about MP or MM, but rather as someone with some experience with teams and relationship building, but I'd encourage several of you to contemplate YOUR behavior with the various team groups in your life.  Are you EXACTLY the same - and by that I mean, do you play the exact same role and does everyone react to you in exactly the same way - in your work friend group as you do your, say, school friend group?  Are you always the most dominant player?  Do you always have the same hierarchy of people around you?

I think if you're being honest, the answer is no, even if the differences are subtle.   Some of us went through this already with other bands (I keep using Kiss, because it's so spot on; Deep Purple might be another).  I think unless MP and MM are exactly the same in every way in that situation, and we know they are not, AND the reaction by the rest of the band and crew to MP and MM are exactly the same by the others in the room, and we know they are not, it can't HELP but be different.   How different, we don't know (yet), and different for the better or worse we don't know (yet) but by definition it HAS to be different.   

I get what you're referring to, about interacting differently with different groups, etc, but I'm failing to grasp the exact point you're making in relation to this thread      Call me emotionally unintelligent, apparently. 🤷

[Stadler]

I get what you're referring to, about interacting differently with different groups, etc, but I'm failing to grasp the exact point you're making in relation to this thread      Call me emotionally unintelligent, apparently. 🤷

I would never call you that, even by implication, and if that's how you took it I deeply apologize for the misunderstanding.

What I'm trying to do is explain why I see - not that I am right, but why I see - the change from Portnoy to Mangini to Portnoy would have impacts that aren't readily apparent from the outside, or that may not be directly tied to the capabilities of either person.

[Stadler]

Yes, all of these mentioned as well as Paralyzed (he brought in the intro riff which JP tweaked a bit), the main rhythm motif for A View (the song), the "groovy" riff from Illumination Theory that comes after the orchestral section as well as the basic idea for the live/die/kill lyric. I'm sure there are others but I just haven't seen them mentioned on interviews or stuff like that.

He also asked/pushed for the band to use Myung's bass riff which ended up being the base for S2N (apparently JM brought in that riff but every time they started jamming on it, they went on a different direction and it was discarded 2 or 3 times before MM insisted on using it), as well as insisting on the band working on a mid-tempo song which he felt was missing from the AVFTTOTW sessions (and that's when JP started working on what became Invisible Monster).

All this comes from interviews through the years as well as the A View documentary, if I'm not mistaken.

Sunnovabitch. So it's HIS fault.  Invisible Monster was rated 174 out of 178 on my DT songs list.  Fuck Mangini!!!!!   


(I'm totally kidding; just because I don't like a song doesn't mean it's not valid or that anyone should be blamed or criticized for it. It just doesn't connect with me, that's all.)

[gzarruk]

   

[crystalstars17]

I would never call you that, even by implication, and if that's how you took it I deeply apologize for the misunderstanding.

Oh please, though I accept your gracious apology, there's no need to apologize! I was calling myself that! 😁 Because after paragraphs of your explanation I still didn't get it  That's totally on me!

What I'm trying to do is explain why I see - not that I am right, but why I see - the change from Portnoy to Mangini to Portnoy would have impacts that aren't readily apparent from the outside, or that may not be directly tied to the capabilities of either person.

I get what you're saying now.

And incidentally, Invisible Monster is literally one of my favorite songs 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Yes, all of these mentioned as well as Paralyzed (he brought in the intro riff which JP tweaked a bit), the main rhythm motif for A View (the song), the "groovy" riff from Illumination Theory that comes after the orchestral section as well as the basic idea for the live/die/kill lyric. I'm sure there are others but I just haven't seen them mentioned on interviews or stuff like that.

He also asked/pushed for the band to use Myung's bass riff which ended up being the base for S2N (apparently JM brought in that riff but every time they started jamming on it, they went on a different direction and it was discarded 2 or 3 times before MM insisted on using it), as well as insisting on the band working on a mid-tempo song which he felt was missing from the AVFTTOTW sessions (and that's when JP started working on what became Invisible Monster).

All this comes from interviews through the years as well as the A View documentary, if I'm not mistaken.

Awesome! I did not know that about Paralyzed but I love that song. I have tended not to totally dig the more radio friendly tunes over the years but that one has always been on my playlist.

Also love S2N and all of Illumination Theory and think it is their best mega epic after ACOS so I am seeing a pattern here 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

One aspect where Portnoy helped a lot in the past is in terms of establishing a concept or overarching theme for each record. When I think of albums like Train of Thought or Octavarium, those records have very strong identities. I think their albums have maybe lost that a little bit over time, starting with Systematic Chaos (when Portnoy was obviously still in the band). The glaring exception is The Astonishing, IMO.

So with regards to the next album, I do wonder if Portnoy will bring a cool concept to the table.

I think View has a very strong identity. John described it as dark and heavy and it very much delivers that. It's a very cohesive record. Even ADTOE is very cohesive even if its identity is tied to I&W. Only one track there is a bit of an odd ball (BMU).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't know you, and I don't know your experience.  I can share mine, but even that's difficult because you weren't there to see it.

I played sports all the way up into college, and then played softball and hockey up to a few years ago.   I've worked at several jobs, from janitor in a public school system to Counsel of a division of General Electric.  I've played in bands from high school up until a couple years ago in Philly, I was a Mummer.  I've been married twice and have four kids (one from my first marriage and three I "inherited" in my second.

The dynamics of the personal relationships of all those situations are radically different.  Some, my softball team in college, the team I led when I was PM in the environmental industry, I was the lead guy.  Others, the Mums, or janitor, I was a soldier, yes, sir, may I have another.  Still others, I was a sort of sole practitioner, given a task and told to bring it home.  Even the same scenarios - softball team for instance - is different every time.

I don't quite follow - and I respectfully put it down to age/experience, and that's not a disrespectful thing to say it's just a fact - how people don't quite follow that it's not the same as plugging and playing the guy that cuts your lawn. Crystal, let's say we get to meet at the next DT show; are you going to react to me - a male at a concert of a band you love - the same way you react to your husband - also, presumably, a male at a concert of a band you love?  I don't say this to make any points about MP or MM, but rather as someone with some experience with teams and relationship building, but I'd encourage several of you to contemplate YOUR behavior with the various team groups in your life.  Are you EXACTLY the same - and by that I mean, do you play the exact same role and does everyone react to you in exactly the same way - in your work friend group as you do your, say, school friend group?  Are you always the most dominant player?  Do you always have the same hierarchy of people around you?

I think if you're being honest, the answer is no, even if the differences are subtle.   Some of us went through this already with other bands (I keep using Kiss, because it's so spot on; Deep Purple might be another).  I think unless MP and MM are exactly the same in every way in that situation, and we know they are not, AND the reaction by the rest of the band and crew to MP and MM are exactly the same by the others in the room, and we know they are not, it can't HELP but be different.   How different, we don't know (yet), and different for the better or worse we don't know (yet) but by definition it HAS to be different. 

I am one of those people; I noticed differences, for better or worse over the last five albums as compared to the five albums that came before.  I generally prefer the ones that came before. I didn't plan it that way, I didn't do that consciously; I like what I like and it's not something I spend too much time thinking about.

I hear you and I am not necessarily disagreeing with anything although I do think it's difficult to just say the music was good because MP was there and the music is falling short because he is not there. None of us is in the room when the ideas are being exchanged so we are left with interviews and a very small sample of making-of footage.

But my more salient point was more that if MP's songwriting contribution is so profound and much needed right now how is that reconciled with the fact that it is very normal to see his last 3 albums in the bottom of the rankings? I just looked at the latest ranking thread but if we went back to others I bet it would an even stronger trend. Lots of fans ranking some - not all - MM albums ahead of his last 3 and many rankings have SC, 8VM, and/or BCSL in the bottom half.

If he has this outsized influence on the songwriting such that he is given credit when the final product is great does he not also get the blame if albums are viewed relatively unfavorably?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Room 137 is basically Manginis song. Didn't he also come up with the lyric rhythm pattern to play along with the drumming rhythm?

Found a video of JP and Mangini discussing this song in a track by track video....

Well clearly the lyrical content was his. The atypical DT feel/groove swing thing appears to have been his idea along with the placement of the lyrics over the drums. However, I am not sure about the melody or the riffs.

Here is John breaking down the rhythms and riffs.

He doesn't mention Mangini when discussing melody or the tonality of the song with is based around a half-whole diminished scale. (very tough to make something melodic with a dissonant scale like that). But the way he is speaking about note choice and wanting darker sounding intervals makes me think the riffs were primarily John.

[TAC]

I woke up and read this thread, and there are so many great points being made.

And I do, but that's not the issue. The issue (and I know we're discussing two sets of issues here) is the pervading attitude across the fandom that MP will singlehandedly save the Titanic, or something. He's not Superman. It's blown way out of proportion. I understand that people are passionate about those they admire (or we all wouldn't be here, right?), but it looks from the outside as if the MP-contingent puts him on some kind of pedestal that's almost too larger-than-life, to the point where he can do no wrong and is gonna save the DT world (have a little more hyperbole!    lol - even the great authors used it because sometimes, it just works, especially when describing behaviors that are in themselves hyperbolic). It's a really weird phenomenon from the outside and I haven't even been in these spaces very long and yet it's very easy to see.
 
I don't think it matters how much time either put in when we're talking about fan preferences and whose contributions we prefer. That's just as you said simply about preference. For example I will always love AVFTTOTW exponentially more than SC. That's just my preference and yours may be the opposite, and that's fine; we can both continue along as two fans of different incarnations of the same band. But I also don't see you exhibiting the kind of behavior I described, I just see a person with a preference for one over the other. 🤷

I do acknowledge that MP was a founder of the band and is their dear friend, and that this personal dimension means a great deal to the band. I don't disparage any of that. It's the fanbase reaction in a certain group of fans that I think is what TheBarstoolWarrior was referring to when he used the word "messianic"    - an overhyped mindset that just seems way out of balance and over the top. People, come on - he's not a superhero, he's not Santa Claus - he's just a very talented man who plays the drums. I've been in fandoms for a while and I've never seen anything quite like this.

**disclaimer - No insults were intended toward MP or his fans - No superheroes were harmed in the making of this post. ✨

Crystal, really loving your posts. You are the extremely rare fan here that became a fan in the MM Era, which musically, was excellent by and large. I can totally see being all WTF at people slobbering over themselves with the return of MP. Please keep posting. I think your POV is important.

The dynamics of the personal relationships of all those situations are radically different.  Some, my softball team in college, the team I led when I was PM in the environmental industry, I was the lead guy.  Others, the Mums, or janitor, I was a soldier, yes, sir, may I have another.  Still others, I was a sort of sole practitioner, given a task and told to bring it home.  Even the same scenarios - softball team for instance - is different every time.

I don't quite follow - and I respectfully put it down to age/experience, and that's not a disrespectful thing to say it's just a fact - how people don't quite follow that it's not the same as plugging and playing the guy that cuts your lawn. Crystal, let's say we get to meet at the next DT show; are you going to react to me - a male at a concert of a band you love - the same way you react to your husband - also, presumably, a male at a concert of a band you love?  I don't say this to make any points about MP or MM, but rather as someone with some experience with teams and relationship building, but I'd encourage several of you to contemplate YOUR behavior with the various team groups in your life.  Are you EXACTLY the same - and by that I mean, do you play the exact same role and does everyone react to you in exactly the same way - in your work friend group as you do your, say, school friend group?  Are you always the most dominant player?  Do you always have the same hierarchy of people around you?

I think if you're being honest, the answer is no, even if the differences are subtle.   Some of us went through this already with other bands (I keep using Kiss, because it's so spot on; Deep Purple might be another).  I think unless MP and MM are exactly the same in every way in that situation, and we know they are not, AND the reaction by the rest of the band and crew to MP and MM are exactly the same by the others in the room, and we know they are not, it can't HELP but be different.   How different, we don't know (yet), and different for the better or worse we don't know (yet) but by definition it HAS to be different. 

I am one of those people; I noticed differences, for better or worse over the last five albums as compared to the five albums that came before.  I generally prefer the ones that came before. I didn't plan it that way, I didn't do that consciously; I like what I like and it's not something I spend too much time thinking about.

Stads, I totally get this. You (we) like what we like right. Can there be an explanation why? I mean, you say "generally prefer" the pre MM albums. like, are the Top 10 spots all MP albums and the bottom 5 all MM?
I guess I was just wondering if you could put into words what the differences are? You probably (could be) a big MP fan in general, and is rooting for DT not the same knowing he's not there, like rooting for favorite sports team after your favorite player leaves? Is it a true lack of interest, even subliminally?
Also, do you factor in at all the fact that the way the band operates in general (not musically) feels a bit colder? In many ways, MP promoted the band far more differently than JP did. It was never as fan friendly without MP. I just wonder if you experienced a general drop of interest over time that made you less receptive to the music perhaps?


... and building off your post, not necessarily directing this to you..

To me, the big difference is finally realizing how much difference a drummer could actually make. It's just easier to hook onto the songs with MP. I know to me, his playing made sense to me, and often it's like I knew what was coming next.  With MM, I generally had no clue what he was doing and it's virtually impossible to air drum to.

Personally, I find the music just as engaging, even though I don't have that emotional connection to the drums. MP was/is the best drummer I've ever heard, but even then, MM wowed me to no end.

Drummers make a difference. Is The Who experience different with Kieth Moon and Kenny Jones?
I find the MP/MM dilemma very similar with Slayer, with a Dave Lombardo/Paul Bostaph dynamic.
I'm a huge Flotsam & Jetsam fan, so this will be obscure, but their first 6 albums with Kelly Smith on drums were so impactful to me, mainly because of the drumming style. When they switched to Craig Neilson for the next number of albums, I just felt like I couldn't connect as easily as did.

I think I finally understand Robert Plant and Jimmy Page now.

The other thing I wonder about is that I notice a lot of fans don't seem to regard the last 3 MP era albums in overly high regard. It's pretty normal to see some of those albums come in at the bottom of fan rankings. So what I wonder is, if the MP songwriting dynamic and coaxing and coddling gave us 3 consecutive albums with questionable standing, why is this regarded has a hands down positive catalyst to the band's creative engine?

For the record I personally do not blame him or give him over the top credit for the good/bad of the last 3 he did.

..&..

But my more salient point was more that if MP's songwriting contribution is so profound and much needed right now how is that reconciled with the fact that it is very normal to see his last 3 albums in the bottom of the rankings? I just looked at the latest ranking thread but if we went back to others I bet it would an even stronger trend. Lots of fans ranking some - not all - MM albums ahead of his last 3 and many rankings have SC, 8VM, and/or BCSL in the bottom half.

If he has this outsized influence on the songwriting such that he is given credit when the final product is great does he not also get the blame if albums are viewed relatively unfavorably?

Two great posts/points.

People have short memories, and I remember SC and BC&SL as being seen as major slippage, and personally, other than the title track, I view 8V as the same.

I do give credit to MP for actually realizing/seeing it himself. He could feel it. He felt they needed some sort of shake up creatively.



MP is the drummer for my all time hypothetical Dream Band. When he left, I was crushed. In many ways, he was the lifeline between the fans and the band. Dream Theater never was able to maintain this connection IMO. Now for me, that never affected the music for me, which I thought was as vibrant as and creative as ever.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Even ADTOE is very cohesive even if its identity is tied to I&W

They sound nothing alike!

[gborland]

People have short memories, and I remember SC and BC&SL as being seen as major slippage, and personally, other than the title track, I view 8V as the same.

I do give credit to MP for actually realizing/seeing it himself. He could feel it. He felt they needed some sort of shake up creatively.

Totally. A change had to happen, and as heartbreaking as MP's departure was, I think it would have been worse if they'd limped on after BC&SL which is one of the laziest and least-inspired albums they've ever recorded. (Heck, the album even includes a song about how JP felt his creative juices were running dry!)

I don't wish the MM era never happened.

I am unbelievably excited to have MP back, though. If they can rekindle the energy, passion, creativity and enthusiasm they had in those "classic" years, we're all in for a treat. MP's heart and soul is in DT, in a way that MM's never was or could be, and that really does make a difference. As has been well said in this thread, band members are not plug-and-play.

[Mladen]

MP is on the record saying his departure from the band back in the day wasn't for creative reasons. I'm confident he was and still is proud of both SC and BCSL. After all, they're both perfectly fine albums. 

[crystalstars17]

Crystal, really loving your posts. You are the extremely rare fan here that became a fan in the MM Era, which musically, was excellent by and large. I can totally see being all WTF at people slobbering over themselves with the return of MP. Please keep posting. I think your POV is important.

Thank you for this. I often feel like a lone voice in the wilderness, or like I'm screaming in a hurricane and no one can hear. I appreciate your acknowledgement.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Totally. A change had to happen, and as heartbreaking as MP's departure was, I think it would have been worse if they'd limped on after BC&SL which is one of the laziest and least-inspired albums they've ever recorded. (Heck, the album even includes a song about how JP felt his creative juices were running dry!)

I don't wish the MM era never happened.

I am unbelievably excited to have MP back, though. If they can rekindle the energy, passion, creativity and enthusiasm they had in those "classic" years, we're all in for a treat. MP's heart and soul is in DT, in a way that MM's never was or could be, and that really does make a difference. As has been well said in this thread, band members are not plug-and-play.

How do you know the extent to which Mangini's heart and soul was in the band? You don't need to be a founding member or in the band 30 years to put your entire self into something.

[gborland]

How do you know the extent to which Mangini's heart and soul was in the band? You don't need to be a founding member or in the band 30 years to put your entire self into something.

DT is in MP's DNA, and vice versa. DT could never have existed without him.

MM was a salaried employee.

[crystalstars17]

How do you know the extent to which Mangini's heart and soul was in the band? You don't need to be a founding member or in the band 30 years to put your entire self into something.

This. James and Jordan are not founding members, yet no one could say that their heart and soul are not in DT or that they haven't given it their all.

[crystalstars17]

MM was a salaried employee.

Wow.

I've seen this before, but is any of it confirmed? Was it ever said by anyone in the band that he was never actually in the band?

I just think this is hearsay that is used to minimize MM's place in the history of the band. It's yet another subtle form of erasure.